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  1. #51
    Exclusive Member NZRacerX's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Just reading that information sheet again, it's not actually an absolute limit on camber angles. If you are outside of the nominated tolerances, you can still get certified so long as it still meets the required safety levels. Given that the stated problem the certifiers are looking to solve is people running massive negative camber solely so as to tuck fat rims under the guards (i.e. just for the "look"), so long as you don't fall into that category and have a decent reason for your suspension geometry, and it still performs to the required standards, then I imagine you should still be fine.

    The rules themselves haven't changed. It just seems that the certifiers decided amongst themselves that they needed some clearer and more consistent guidelines for the application of those rules, and they came up with them. Seems fair to me.

  2. #52
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) illicit's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by Horny_Devil View Post
    but isnt that exactally what the driven test with the simulated weight in the car is for when going for a cert? isnt that why they look over the car from top to bottom take measurements etc?
    yes, but it still must be practical and safe. Cert is for certifying non-standard parts on a car - they should still be practical and safe for road use - as thats what its getting certified for = road use.

  3. #53
    9,000rpm (S2000 Redline!) SiRge's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    ^ But if you have a motorsport lisence you still can drive your racecar on the road. So a racecar can have -5 degrees camber if they wanted, but a normal certed car might be only aloud -1.5. Both legally driven on the road... 1 with a shit load more camber than the other
    Quote Originally Posted by skyanswer View Post
    I wana put green or blue neons under my dc5r.
    I'm nt a ricer.... Just want my car 2 go faster. Dats all.

  4. #54

    Re: New camber rules for certs

    saying that racecars will account to be less than 1% of the cars driving around lowered with the camber out.

  5. #55
    Team NZH: Committee tysonzane's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    There are bugger all race cars driving around with 5* camber. In fact I do a shit load of driving and would be lucky to see one road registered race car per week.

    A road registered race car isn't exactly daily driver material.

    Sacked and cambered out EVO's and Nissans are daily driven ALOT more - see those every day!

  6. #56

    Re: New camber rules for certs

    also as i think someone mentioned before, race
    cars don't make good dailys. you get shaken around there cold in winter and sweltering in summer. If you end up using one as a daily they just make you angry.

  7. #57
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) illicit's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    @ siRge
    Quote Originally Posted by illicit View Post
    obviously you are not your average Joe Public driver, you'll have a better understanding of the effect of the changes to your handling, more importantly the negative effects in regard to road use.
    Some of the replies here seem to want to legislate out of common sense. You are driving your race car on the road - this is a special circumstance, there should be checks in place to ensure that the vehicle meets some safety standards suitable for use around other public road users and that you understand this is a special vehicle, requiring special licensing for you to use.

  8. #58
    3,000rpm (Grandma Drag) civiconfire's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Nobody has mentioned toe angle. Surely having a toe-in to compensate for loss of surface contact on your tires makes it cert worthy? Although you do go through tires quicker this way, as I have discovered. I think the rules should really state that you need full surface contact for the width of your tread.
    My power steering whines like a supercharger, does this make me a ricer?

  9. #59
    3,000rpm (Grandma Drag) KPDRFT's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by civiconfire View Post
    Nobody has mentioned toe angle. Surely having a toe-in to compensate for loss of surface contact on your tires makes it cert worthy? Although you do go through tires quicker this way, as I have discovered. I think the rules should really state that you need full surface contact for the width of your tread.
    ^^^ This

  10. #60
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    This thread is getting dumber and dumber.

    Just put wheels that fit well on your car and nobody will give a shit how much camber you have.

    How dumb is that really, having camber to help your cornering but running toe in to compensate......the more toe in you have on a pair of wheels makes it harder to turn that pair of wheels into a corner.

    Someone should lock this before any more stupendous information is spilled over the net making us look dumber.

  11. #61
    3,000rpm (Grandma Drag) civiconfire's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    For those of us with lowering springs/adjustables, who do not have camber adjustment kits, a little toe in is an acceptable fix I think. Much better than falling off the road in the wet or wearing the inside of your tire out twice as fast.
    My power steering whines like a supercharger, does this make me a ricer?

  12. #62
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    A little bit sure...... To make it cert worthy...no

    You are better off flipping/rotating and maintaining tyre pressure to minimalise wear.

  13. #63
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRubber View Post
    This thread is getting dumber and dumber.

    Just put wheels that fit well on your car and nobody will give a shit how much camber you have.

    How dumb is that really, having camber to help your cornering but running toe in to compensate......the more toe in you have on a pair of wheels makes it harder to turn that pair of wheels into a corner.

    Someone should lock this before any more stupendous information is spilled over the net making us look dumber.
    In my case it's not a matter of wheels not fitting properly (I've currently got factory 14x5.5" on ), rather just my ride height means the lowest negative camber I can get in the rear is -3° which is what I am currently running. Fortunately I've already had my car certified so shouldn't have to worry about it, but I do feel the change comes across as a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and should be based on a maximum amount of negative camber for all cars (surely contact patch relative to camber is consistent across all cars, regardless of factory recommendations?) to define what is and is not a silly amount.

  14. #64
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    What it should be is = or - the factory specs...so if its outside a certain tolerance then fail but if within range all good.

  15. #65
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    max negative camber on hella sunk wheels=WIN!!!
    Please like RDConcept in Facebook! For all your GENUINE wheels and FALKEN tyres at an affordable price!!

  16. #66
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRubber View Post
    What it should be is = or - the factory specs...so if its outside a certain tolerance then fail but if within range all good.
    If the issue is purely tyre contact patch affecting braking and handling, and given that contact patch relative to camber angle is largely consistent regardless of vehicle (weight extremes etc. aside) I feel a maximum allowed camber angle could be given rather than a (fairly limited) range outside of factory tolerances.

  17. #67
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) illicit's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    ^^^ What are the other effects of running more aggressive camber angles?

    Those will need to be taken into consideration also.

    The problem we have Mr.Shine is that you are looking for a way around the issue you and others have - wanting to run more camber.
    There is already a way around this - cert or authority card.

    You are wanting to modify your vehicle to your own personal preference, which is fine - just prove its safe by getting cert and/or authority card.

  18. #68
    Team NZH: Order of Merit Horny_Devil's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    but how does an authority card show the camber is safe fror the street, and why cant the cert check do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by permaisuri View Post
    ooh yeah, i read it differently.... sorry, im asian with 4 eyes... shouldve read better....

  19. #69
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by illicit View Post
    The problem we have Mr.Shine is that you are looking for a way around the issue you and others have - wanting to run more camber.
    Not at all. I already have certification and have no desire to run more rear camber than the -3° camber I'm forced to run due to my ride height, which has already been certified. As I recall I was interested in -2° rear camber for my alignment, but permaisuri was unable to get it lower than -3°.

    I'm running on factory 14x5.5" wheels with factory-size 185/60R14 tyres, and don't have issues with my tyres rubbing on the guards. I have no intention of fitting wheels or tyres that would require any greater amount of camber front or rear. My thought process is merely that the stated issue is handling and braking performance as a result of contact patch relative to camber angle, something that I understand to be relatively constant across vehicles and their appropriate tyre width.

    The problem I see is that it's using vehicle-specific factory settings to limit extensive, non-factory modifications for something that is not a vehicle-specific issue. If I run -5° camber on a 205/50R15-fitted wheel on my Roadster I'm going to have the same contact patch as a Honda Civic running the same camber, wheel and tyre width settings, and yet we're bound by different factory settings on extensively non-factory modified cars.

    I see it as an illogical knee-jerk reaction. Instead I think it should be defined as a maximum negative camber setting for all cars, conditional on the car also passing a satisfactory road handling and braking test that is properly defined, e.g. the car must be able to brake from x speed within y distance etc.

  20. #70
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    It has to be based on the factory tolerance.....Why the fuck do you think each car has its own specs built into massive databases on alignment machines ??? Because all cars are different.

    So if you say 2 degrees OUTSIDE of the vehicles TOLERANCE (rather than just a set number for any car) that will in fact give you the scope to go to 3 degrees as the TOLERANCE for the spec is usually a degree either side.

    ie:

    spec = -1.5

    tolerance = -.05 >-1.5 < -2.5

    ad a possible 2 degrees above and beyond the tolerance and you have 3.5 degrees

    yer
    Last edited by DrRubber; 8th May 2012 at 12:49 PM.

  21. #71
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRubber View Post
    It has to be based on the factory tolerance.....Why the fuck do you think each car has its own specs built into massive databases on alignment machines ??? Because all cars are different.

    So if you say 2 degrees OUTSIDE of the vehicles TOLERANCE (rather than just a set number for any car) that will in fact give you the scope to go to 3 degrees as the TOLERANCE for the spec is usually a degree either side.
    I don't think there's any need for vulgarities. The actual issue has nothing to do with individual cars' factory alignment tolerances and handling characteristics, but vehicles' handling and stopping relative to contact patch as a result of camber changes. As above, two vehicles running the same camber and wheel/tyre widths will have the same contact patch, give or take minor amounts relating to their individual weights.

    I don't disagree that unsafely cambered cars shouldn't be on the road, but given the issue is one of handling and/or braking ability it should be based on a structured, defined test of handling and/or braking ability rather than what seems to be an arbitrary amount of variation from the factory specifications relating to a now non-factory vehicle.

  22. #72
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    It has EVERYTHING to do with factory spec

    but hey what would honda or any other manufacturer know about building cars and developing suspension systems eh.....

  23. #73
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRubber View Post
    It has EVERYTHING to do with factory spec

    but hey what would honda or any other manufacturer know about building cars and developing suspension systems eh.....
    Factory suspension systems with factory wheels, absolutely. Factory alignment specs are less relevant at best when you're dealing with significantly (read: certification-worthy) modified vehicles.

  24. #74
    Exclusive Member NZRacerX's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shine View Post
    The problem I see is that it's using vehicle-specific factory settings to limit extensive, non-factory modifications for something that is not a vehicle-specific issue. If I run -5° camber on a 205/50R15-fitted wheel on my Roadster I'm going to have the same contact patch as a Honda Civic running the same camber, wheel and tyre width settings, and yet we're bound by different factory settings on extensively non-factory modified cars.

    I see it as an illogical knee-jerk reaction. Instead I think it should be defined as a maximum negative camber setting for all cars, conditional on the car also passing a satisfactory road handling and braking test that is properly defined, e.g. the car must be able to brake from x speed within y distance etc.
    Read the LVVTA Information Sheet on page 1 dude...

    Quote Originally Posted by LVVTA Information Sheet #04-2012
    Even amongst these experts however, opinions varied greatly, as did the factory alignment specifications for different makes and models. It quickly became apparent that a 'one size fits all' limit would be difficult, and so after some consideration, a basic formula of 'manufacturer's specifications plus haf a degree' has been agreed on. This may be changed in the future as feedback is received from LVV Certifiers and other experts, but for now we at least have a line in the sand.
    And to my mind, it is a vehicle-specific issue. Your example is just looking at the contact patch of a static tyre. The change in camber angle under suspension load is very much a vehicle/geometry specific thing.

  25. #75
    Troll King Mr. Shine's Avatar
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    Re: New camber rules for certs

    That's a fair point, however it doesn't address the issue that we are dealing with significantly non-factory modifications, potentially even with regard to that very suspension geometry if you're throwing in aftermarket suspension arms as well.

    As a case in point of how factory alignment specifications can be barely if at all relevant to certification, MX-5 factory alignment specs for rear camber are -0.72° +/- 0.5° giving a maximum of -1.72° camber including certification allowances. With my ride height alone I'm incapable of getting less than 3° so in my case factory specs are impossible without further aftermarket suspension arms and the like, taking it even further from the factory suspension setup that is supposed to make it vehicle-specific.


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