are radar detectors illegal?

[David R]

Originally Posted by Esprit

but on many an occasion have I been about to execute a passing manoeuvre where I knew there was a good chance I would have to exceed the speed limit to do it safely

You make it sound like that needing to get passed someone is an excuse for speeding. Did you by chance happen to be rushing your in-labour pregnant wife to the hospital?

Originally Posted by Esprit

What about because all the research done on the matter shows that people who use a radar detector are actually 28% less likely to be involved in an accident than those without (Source: Mori Report)

Originally Posted by Homer Simpson

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that.

I bet if you did a study of the colour of crash victims underpants you could probably come up with some sort of trend that says people wearing beige y-fronts are safer drivers...

[Kiwi XTR2]

Originally Posted by David R

I bet if you did a study of the colour of crash victims underpants you could probably come up with some sort of trend that says people wearing beige y-fronts are safer drivers...

That study is about the correlation not the causation, but the statistics are quite clear.

It is clearly a pro hoc propter hoc situation but neither is it valid to claim that drivers with radar detectors are necessarily dangerous or necessarily doing anything illegal.

As to the question of "Why should the government allow detectors?" - That is a compliance kind of logic that irritates me greatly.

Anything and everything should be 'allowed' unless, for good reason, it needs to be restricted.

[Esprit]

Originally Posted by Colza

Thats missuse of statistics and you know it.

The data will show that the people who buy radar detectors are often better drivers. There is probably a correllation there, i wont deny that.

That does not in any way imply that having a radar detector makes you a better driver. That is causation and is an entirely seperate argument.

If you take the radar detectors off those people, they will still be good drivers.

Not necessarily... the key to the law is that a radar detector in itself is not illegal... it's what it's used for. This is why they're not able to ban the SALE of them as inherently a radar detector detector poses no safety risk (like, say, a firearm does).

Now the LTSA (or the NZTA as they're now known) is charged with making the roads as safe as possible. In proposing this law they're trying to stop people from avoiding enforcement of the speeding laws. The speeding laws are there for safety reasons. If it can be shown that the type of driver that buys and uses a radar detector is inherently SIGNIFICANTLY more safe than the average driver then one could argue that the impetus behind the new law has nothing to do with road safety since these clearly aren't the drivers who are causing a significant number of the accidents.

I'd also like to challenge this law on the basis that a radar detector is an entirely passive device and does nothing but detect incoming directed RADAR sources. To my mind, it's a constitutional right of mine that if anyone chooses to emit energy of any kind in my direction that, if I so desire, I have the right to ue any means at my disposal to detect that energy so that I can be informed about the (potentially harmful) radiation and take appropriate action.... yes, this is facetious, but it should be my right.

In the same manner, if they legislate against radar detectors then they're also obliged to legislate against scanners (police radio) as this has exactly the same implications. One could also argue the flow-on implications of this to extend to any device that might be used to avoid law enforcement could then become illegal.... hence kiss goodbye to your cellphone as this could potentially be used to warn others of a police checkpoint etc. Hell, they may even ban slowing down when you SEE a cop... I mean if you spot a cop car with your own eyes and you slow down (whether you're speeding or not) you're simply doing exactly the same thing that they claim to be so "dangerous" with a radar detector... you're using your eyes to avoid speed limit enforcement, which is the very reason they're giving for banning detectors... perhaps we should all be banned from having eyes too.

In the end, It WON'T HAPPEN here.... as the law stands, the police have no powers of roadside search and seizure for anything other than weapons and the Greens will not vote for anything that give the Police more powers of search and seizure... nor will the Maori party, hence there's no way in hell Labour can get this law through as they simply don't have the numbers.

In the end, it's simple... I find that my radar detector makes me a safer and more alert driver.... I'll not go on a long distance drive without it as it means I can concentrate more on my driving than my speed, which enables me to be much more defensive in the way I drive, especially when (as I've stated before) much of the speed-limit enforcement on the open road these days is about entrapment and revenue gathering than road safety.

I wonder if those slagging off detectors and their users would also be so quick to support the notion of many that the only reason to buy (and use) a performance car on the roads, or to modify a car to increase its horsepower and top speed is to enable them to break the law. Perhaps you would all support legislation that said we were all to drive 1.3L Toyota Corollas on the road and that if you had a DC2R that is now illegal for use on the road since it can be used as a tool to break the law? Give me a break!

[Dionysus]

i'm feeling dizzy. From the gayness

[Esprit]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

i'm feeling dizzy. From the gayness

That really adds something to the conversation, thank you for your valued contribution... Do you come up with those all by yourself or does your mummy help you?

[DrRubber]

Anything and everything should be 'allowed' unless, for good reason, it needs to be restricted

agree 100 %

[David R]

Originally Posted by Esprit

In the end, it's simple... I find that my radar detector makes me a safer and more alert driver.... I'll not go on a long distance drive without it as it means I can concentrate more on my driving than my speed, which enables me to be much more defensive in the way I drive, especially when (as I've stated before) much of the speed-limit enforcement on the open road these days is about entrapment and revenue gathering than road safety.

Are you really incapable of driving at a constant speed, or if you're unable to occasionally glance at the speedo and check your speed (a similar task to checking your mirrors) then should you even have a drivers license?

Originally Posted by Esprit

I wonder if those slagging off detectors and their users would also be so quick to support the notion of many that the only reason to buy (and use) a performance car on the roads, or to modify a car to increase its horsepower and top speed is to enable them to break the law. Perhaps you would all support legislation that said we were all to drive 1.3L Toyota Corollas on the road and that if you had a DC2R that is now illegal for use on the road since it can be used as a tool to break the law? Give me a break!

Give us a break! Are you really suggesting that people who drive their performance cars with-in the laws and aren't upset about radar detectors being banned are inherently supporting the banning of high performance cars?
[well at least I think thats what you're getting at, it didn't really make sense to me]

It seems pretty obvious to me, the only reason you would need a radar detector is if you are intending on breaking the law. If you are such an incompetent driver that you can't maintain a constant speed ont he open road then you shouldn't be driving, or at the very least you should be man enough to accept the occasional fine for being stupid enough to not keep your speed in check.

*edit*

Anything and everything should be 'allowed' unless, for good reason, it needs to be restricted

I agree 100%, despite my above comments. I don't think radar detectors should be banned, but I have no sympathy for those crying about it because of their petty b.s arguments that they "make you a safer driver"...

[Kiwi XTR2]

Originally Posted by David R

It seems pretty obvious to me, the only reason you would need a radar detector is if you are intending on breaking the law. If you are such an incompetent driver that you can't maintain a constant speed ont he open road then you shouldn't be driving . . .

Who said anything about 'needing' one ??

I want one. Give me a good reason why I should not be allowed to have one.

In the same way, I want my cars that can exceed the open road speed limit in 3.7 seconds and eventually haul out to much more than double the open road speed limit. Why should I not be allowed to own those cars.

[walshy]

what an interesting thread this has turned out to be hah!

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Esprit

Do you come up with those all by yourself or does your mummy help you?

Nah, lately your mother has been.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Kiwi XTR2

Who said anything about 'needing' one ??

I want one. Give me a good reason why I should not be allowed to have one.

Need/want, what ever. The reason is still the same. You want one because you wish to exceed the speed limit with out getting caught.
I don't think you shouldn't be allowed one, I just wish people would cut the lame excuses like "it makes me a safer driver" and be honest enough to say they want it so they can reduce the chances of being caught speeding. If you were concerned about being a safe driver you'd stick to 90kmh....

[Trivium]

Yeh Davids right, the only reason you need a radar is to help you break the law. Plain and simple as that

[CIVTEC]

Hold up Trivium, let's not forget street cred ?

Good debate. Makes for an interesting read.
I quite enjoyed having a radar up until the point where some fucker broke into my car and stole it.

[Trivium]

Yeh I "lived" by mine, til it was stolen...then I worked out I didn't need it as I didnt speed so never bothered replacing it. Actually the insurance money was spent on an epic night in town involving beer and strippers

[Esprit]

Originally Posted by David R

Are you really incapable of driving at a constant speed, or if you're unable to occasionally glance at the speedo and check your speed (a similar task to checking your mirrors) then should you even have a drivers license?



Give us a break! Are you really suggesting that people who drive their performance cars with-in the laws and aren't upset about radar detectors being banned are inherently supporting the banning of high performance cars?
[well at least I think thats what you're getting at, it didn't really make sense to me]

It seems pretty obvious to me, the only reason you would need a radar detector is if you are intending on breaking the law. If you are such an incompetent driver that you can't maintain a constant speed ont he open road then you shouldn't be driving, or at the very least you should be man enough to accept the occasional fine for being stupid enough to not keep your speed in check.

*edit*

I agree 100%, despite my above comments. I don't think radar detectors should be banned, but I have no sympathy for those crying about it because of their petty b.s arguments that they "make you a safer driver"...

David... read my args again.... CAREFULLY... note that I have stated that I feel the time when a radar detector is at its most useful is when I am overtaking. I'm QUITE capable of maintaining a constant speed on the open road.

I don't know about you, but when I'm making a passing manoeuvre where I'm pulling into the oncoming lane, my eyes are TRANSFIXED on the road ahead, scanning all the time as I accelerate to pass. I'm double, triple, quadruple checking to make sure I've not inadvertently missed an oncoming car, another car indicating and pulling out or some other road hazard at this time that is BY FAR the most risky driving event you encounter on the open road.... I prefer to be able to accelerate to a safe passing speed (be it a legal or an illegal one) without having to take my eyes from scanning the road ahead to see when I've reached the legal limit for fear of getting a ticket... it's as simple as that.

In much the same manner as I perform a great many checks as a safe and defensive driver before, during and after a passing manoeuvre, a cursory listen for the chirp of the V1 is just part and parcel of that process and one that makes it safer as I don't have to second-guess myself for fear of putting my drivers' licence in jeopardy. The first rule of defensive (and competition) driving was simple... NEVER HESITATE... We all know the Police's favourite tactic of placing patrol cars and SCameras right where people are likely to be executing safe passing manoeuvres instead of genuine blackspots. If anything, in recent years I've seen a drop-off in open-road driving safety as people are doing just that... HESITATING. The year-on-year rise we've had the last couple of years in the road-toll despite the number of people being ticketed and our lowest overall average road-speed for decades would also seem to rather back up this argument.

Now you can debate this all you want but for me, and (as the Mori study seems to corroborate) my radar detector makes me a safer driver by allowing me to make more confident manoeuvres on the open road.... I don't treat it as a licence to speed at will, and in my experience most people with detectors who lose their licence do so just as fast with a detector as they do without.

In any case.. eventually legal or not, the government will have to pry my detector from my cold, dead hands.

As for my argument about the banning of performance cars, I was merely playing devil's advocate. A radar detector is no more encouragement to speed than buying a car that can get to the legal speed limit in 6 seconds when there's perfectly capable cars out there that will do it in 12.... But to be honest, if you're forming an argument against one, you can't really not form an argument against the other without contradicting your own logic... why, when even the most humble economy car can do the speed limit comfortably, would you buy a car whose performance makes it many times easier for you to break the law?

I speed no more since I've bought my detector than I did before it... on the open road (detector or not) I still sit at an indicated ~105-108km/h as a typical cruise speed (102-105km/h true ground-speed) and only exceed this for short transient periods, ergo in my own personal experience, the picture you paint of a detector user as someone who has less regard for the road rules than someone who doesn't certainly doesn't hold water in my case. My MUCH cleaner than average drivers' licence will attest to that.

Originally Posted by David R

I just wish people would cut the lame excuses like "it makes me a safer driver" and be honest enough to say they want it so they can reduce the chances of being caught speeding.

Fine... yes, I have my detector to help me avoid getting a ticket. The only reason I do so is because I believe the current regime of strict speed limit enforcement in inappropriate places leads drivers to hold an undue fear where their judgement for making the correct decisions for their safety on the road is clouded by the fear of losing their licence. I'd rather keep my (and my V1's) eyes on the road thanks... not on my speedo.

[Horny_Devil]

Originally Posted by Trivium

Yeh Davids right, the only reason you need a radar is to help you break the law. Plain and simple as that

so the time that ur following a car at 80km/h for 10km+ and by this time ur frustrated, then u get to a passing lane and they speed up to 110km/h, and u want to get past cause u know ull be stuck behind them for another 10-20km. you have no choice but to speed to get past them. and how often do u see cops sitting on the passing lanes?

its not as simple as that and i really dont see how people cant understand that. i have a radar detector and i rearly speed, mainly during overtaking, its juts handy to have warning if there is a cop ahead/accident etc.

think what u might but your being very closed minded on the subject.

[David R]

George - so to paraphrase, you want the radar detector so you can break the law in the safest possible manner?

If safety was your number one concern you wouldn't be doing such risky overtaking manoeuvres that require speeds considerably in excess of the speed limit.

Jase - your example is more of an exception than a rule. It does happen occasionally, and sometimes you do have to go a bit faster than the legal limit to get past people (well, do you really have to?). I've been lucky a few times, over-taking between 110-120kmh and had cops drive past but never ticketed. In fact I'm sure most people have, and if you counted the number of times people had got away with it as opposed to actually being chased and issued a ticket for <20kmh over the limit while over-taking then the police might not look like such a bunch of revenue-gatherers....

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Esprit

(102-105km/h true ground-speed) and only exceed this for short transient periods

Stop speeding, technically you shouldn't exceed the limit at all passing. We all know this is difficult to do.

Frankly I don't know why car's aren't all limited to 100 anyway. It would be hard selling SS's and 540's if they were.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Esprit

Fine... yes, I have my detector to help me avoid getting a ticket. The only reason I do so is because I believe the current regime of strict speed limit enforcement in inappropriate places leads drivers to hold an undue fear where their judgement for making the correct decisions for their safety on the road is clouded by the fear of losing their licence. I'd rather keep my (and my V1's) eyes on the road thanks... not on my speedo.

God finally.

[duncanb]

Originally Posted by Stubs

Well I travelled From Napier to Auckland, round auckland for a couple of hours and then drove back down to napier, then without stopping to palmerston North, round there for an hour or two then back to Napier. On the way back from Palmy I found myself having to really check myself as I was getting up to 120-130 on the straights without realising it.

So after driving for a grand total of 16 hours in one day do I fail as a driver for not realising im going slightly over the limit?

You fail for driving 16 hours in one day! The limit for truckies is 11.

Sorry, just noticed that someone's already said this.

[d16a7]

Originally Posted by duncanb

You fail as a driver for driving 16 hours in one day! Truckies are allowed to drive a maximum of 11 per day.

on paper

ive driven many more hours than 11 in one day.. just need red bull towards the end of it.. (BTW i aint no truckie)