Headers 4-1/4-2-1??

[crxmad]

Originally Posted by Honda Addict

hmm, ok well i have spent the last 5 years of my life around engineering, and yes i have held them in my hands, can see that they are cheap, the welds crack easily(although can re-weld) and they dont last as long as good brand/quality.........
i dont know if i was reading your comment wrong, but it came across as an ASSHOLE comment........ any need for that???

Yes your right, theres definately alot of cheap crap around that crack easily and discolour due to the very thin walled low grade stainless used in the construction of them.
A mate of mine used to sell parts on trademe and sold a few XS POWER headers and from memory had a few complaints from unhappy customers!

I would certainly prefer a decent quality mild steel header over stainless as they are generally lighter and less likely to crack also.

[crxmad]

Originally Posted by b16a2

what do you know about qaulity, especially qaulity of headers, have you held and examined xforce vs somehting "higher qaulity", do you even know what yor looking for

again you seen to insinuate an inability to withstand track condition, because the header is cheaper, and "lesse qaulity

in general you get what you pay for is the candidate suposition, however, there are plenty of chinese made products of high qaulity, its just cheap cuz they pay their staff peanuts, and once again the pay peanuts, get monkeys spiel isnt always correct

As you say

The spiel might not always be right, but i bet you it is for most of it!
You cant say your going to get quality chinese headers for like $200-$300
eg, XS POWER that are going to last a fair while let alone make any worthwhile power gains.
In my search for dyno reviews on headers i couldnt find anything on the chinese ones as i dont think anyone half serious about power would even bother.
They go for known brands with a good following and know what theyre getting.
Most that ive seen are thin walled ,cheap looking tig welding, and the flanges have been welded on badly then reamed out hard with a die grinder.
They are not even a bad copy of decent headers, with the likes of anti reversion, stepped primarys, and mandrel bends.

Admittedly if your tight as for cash they could still be an option to get you going, but in long term your far better off to spend $600-$900 only once and get a real set of headers

[Robbie]

yup, e more i think about it, the more i agree, just save a bit longer, and get some good ones, mugen/Js racing etc. and it adds to your JDM bling

[crxmad]

Originally Posted by Honda Addict

yup, e more i think about it, the more i agree, just save a bit longer, and get some good ones, mugen/Js racing etc. and it adds to your JDM bling

Yip thats the story do it once and right,that way you wont regret it either just make sure you make a well informed decision without being mislead by anyone.You will spend a bit more now but im sure its all worth it.
You only have search the net and see the types most of the US guys use and you soon know they mean business.
I havnt seen any Wong racing headers on their cars lol.

[Dionysus]

Toda, end of discussion.

Though not cheap

This was stolen from Team Integra as the Great Header Test seems to be hard to find

There was a long long thread about it over at honda-tech and I don't know if they still have it in the archives.





Basically, it was a bunch regular Joe's like you and me getting together, donating & collecting money for the dyno time (actually Chad did an amazing job organizing it), both regular honda owners and shops loaned their header for the test, and a member (not attached to any shop or agenda) volunteered his ITR to be the test mule.

They changed the oil a couple of times during the test.

Histrorical perspective:

there was the first "Great Header Test" done by Sport Compact Car in Oct 1999 using a gen 3 GSR with an AEM CAI and stock cat, and a 2.36 in. exhaust, no tuning, done on a dynojet on various days.

this second one was done on an ITR with a Comptech CAI on a Mustang dyno and the details are described by SMSP who was there in the post above, including the fact that they weren't hampered by a stock cat. The good thing was that it was all done on the same day but the down side was like first test, no fuel/ignition tuning was done to harmonize the engine to each header. There was no Hytech in the competition. There was a Mutech though LOL: a Mugen 4-1 header which had to be repaired after it's primaries were crushed from a low ground clearance hit and had the back part of a Hytech with a 2.5 in. collector attached.

The questions of heat soaking and lack of tuning did come up, since the differences between the headers were negligible and the fact no major differences were found in the different powerbands among the top headers using different design layouts didn't make sense, as Surfer raised here in this thread. It was a great effort though by the grassroots enthusiasts like you and me and shows you what people (complete strangers to one another) can do if they come together in a common project to try to get answer that the companies won't answer or weren't willing to answer. They deserved an "A" for effort for sure.


The top 3 headers were the Toda, SMSP, and Spoon but the difference was hardly noticeable.


The third Great Header Test was done by Titan Motorsports and we have a copy of the thread here if you search under "great header" in the performance forum (but the dyno pics are lost). The good thing about this test was: there was fuel/ignition tuning for each header, it was done on the same car, on the same day, on the same dyno, using a full 2.5 in. exhaust system. This one by far is the most accurate of the 3 in terms of methodology of measuring power as best you can accurately. Hytech won that test. However, there was no SMSP in that test.


Remember in dynos you are looking at the relative changes. You look at the difference between the headers and not the absolute peak number for each header since we know each dyno can vary in calibration, wheel inertia added, correction factors, and dyno operator sampling method.

[EVLTEK FBI AKL]

you guys need to get off the TRR buzz I am afraid - they are no longer available and therefore, unless second hand are not an option worth mentioning.

the X-force are by far the best value for money out there and I have seen them make more power then Toda on a highly strung setup (genkei can verify)........

You have to remember that you are talking about very small power differences between diff setups - only a couple wkw here or there.

Spending 1000 versus 400 to get another 3 HP.....unless money is not an object, I just can't see it being worth it.

[Robbie]

yeah, well i have bought myself some second hand mugen 4-1s, i figure it is better to get the quality, even 2nd hand, than new Xforce, which althou good for street, when you bring hard driving on the track into it, cant garentee it will last

[gsm-itr]

I just bought some 2nd hand dc sports 4-1 headers and they have made a huge difference over the stock 97 itr ones...

[Genkei]

cant be stuff reading all the posts

ill cut it short

Never seen a xforce crackd ( not on the cars we do )
plus if u do smack one is only 350 buks for another one

for that price u can have 4 set spare then 1x toda or 2x Jdm Headers

ive tested 6 to 7 headers from 300 buks to $1700+


I can tell u that

- Toda does make power but for stock internal Engine for a hardcore build it wont flow enough Xforce or 4in1 wins

- Hytec will give u a better torque and mid range and also up the top - 2.0L+ B series should go with big tube
small tube on a stock internal engine was same result

any 4 in 1 had similar result ( 98spec, Mugen, TRR, Pro, Xforce )

Is all depends on engine setup, internal and tuning

If its a stock internal the difference will only be 2 to 3kw at peak anyway

[Jose]

We had DC Sports 4-1 with 3" exahust in my B16a Race Ready, 180 whp, but we bought a Mugen Header 4-1 with the same exhaust and now we have 185 whp, so we increase 5 horses changing to the Mugen Header, But the Mugen Header cost around $800, DC Sport $400 +/-.

That our experience. Good luck.

[Klasse]

link below has the dyno results of one of the tests mentioned above i think.

http://www.ek9.org/forum/honda-integ...-r-engine.html

looks like theres sfa between many of them, ie the extra $800 might get you 2hp...

suddenly 98 spec dont look so bad either...

[mithere]

I wouldn't buy Xforce From what I've heard as general consensus the quality IS crap...
J's Racing or some other good 2nd hand headers would be my first choice... If you ever resell it I know I'd rather buy J's racing over TRR/Pro1 just based on the name despite knowing there's not much difference
TRR/Pro1s are good though

[mithere]

Oh you just bought Mugen, good choice

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by mithere

Oh you just bought Mugen, good choice

haha, yeah i got mugens 2nd hand for the same price as new xforce.... mugen FTW, noticed a big difference over factory 96spec headers...... glad i got broke for them rofl

[mithere]

Hard, I got Mugens too and it's nice knowing you've got Mugen behind you
How much did you pay out of interest?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by mithere

Hard, I got Mugens too and it's nice knowing you've got Mugen behind you
How much did you pay out of interest?

ahh, i paid $400 from a guy on here(in parmy i think...)
they had repairs on bottom, but were repaired well, and they still flow mint!!!
and its more JDM bling when you see mugen in your engine bay

[mithere]

Hard
I paid $600 for mine lol
I got Mugen IHE, suspension and pedals

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by mithere

Hard
I paid $600 for mine lol
I got Mugen IHE, suspension and pedals

haha, dam that beats me
i have random I
mugen H
and budy clup E
lol
are you running full mugen coilovers? i have mugen damper adjustable in mine too, but not height adjustable

[mithere]

Nah, same as you
I don't care about the height, I think they are pretty sweet for height..
Maybe a centimetre drop

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by mithere

Nah, same as you
I don't care about the height, I think they are pretty sweet for height..
Maybe a centimetre drop

ahh true, well mine are lower than when they come out(not to sure what springs they got) but not adjustable......
my car is being build for track day fun, and it held up to the track good, just looks to high lmao

[Xforce]

my itr made 135wkw on a seepedfactor dyno back in 2006 with only xforce headers/intake/exhaust msd coil n capn good 5w-40 motul oil with no aftermarket computer

[Commy]

what is a good combo for a na six then?

[Robbie]

asuming from your name, you have a commy... coby FTW the bext in my mind(affordably anyways)

Originally Posted by Commy

what is a good combo for a na six then?