JTUNE - K20+K24 Engine build for Test Rabbit EP3

[Genkei]

been abit busy last weekend . . but now finally got the car home
Waiting on the Oil Pump from ERL , other ones had forsale are gone
Also waiting on a New engine loom and a clutch plate then most of the parts is there

Since there was spare time today . .
Took the box to work and start stripping them down
Ive got Two box one is a RSX 6 speed from the states which doesnt come with LSD.
This box will be going into the EP3 with a Stock TypeR LSD coz it will be for dail use
Then there is a spare box for something else,, 5 speed and a new Kaza 1.5way LSD
Gearset might get send away to be heat treated

But after taking both stock open diff out . . found out there is no bolts instock . . the TypeR Lsd runs longer bolt . . so got abit pissed off, cant be stuff take pic of the gearset and parts. ill wash it down first and compare both of the box. Both box looks new one done 1000ks? one was 4000ks

5 spd box with KAza lsd


RSX box with TypeR lsd

[patman45]

Jacky la just hurry up finish this and make room for MY CAR .. hahahahahahahaha NOW .... I think Anns goin to drop it off and what is this text u sent me yesterday that u go smoke by 267 ?

[turbozxi]

Originally Posted by Genkei

reflash
or
HKS F Con
or
E manager ultimate

Do you tune Emanage ultimate?

[Sleepy]

Damn reading k20a.org makes me want a turbo k20a. Some big numbers there

[Genkei]

yup got the software for ultimate, cable is somewhere used once on a altezza turbo



Yup stock block can handle some power already ! got a bottom end and a head u can play with if u want it for cheap !


Managed to get the bolts for the LSD but only have enough for one Diff ! ! ! gonna get the 6spd box together first shouldnt take long . . hopefully end of the week is ready

[BWDOWN]

Hey Jacky is there a better K24 block to start off with than others? I can have a K24A1 ex CRV full engine for $400 is that a ok price??

Look forward to seeing this car progress

[Genkei]

Yo !

Umm the CRV Engine wont work if are planning to run the pro[per VTEc , meaning VTEc on both cams, the reason is being, there wont be enough clearance for the valve. Even if u got away from the clearance problem, next ull be down on compression

If you are to use a CRV K24a, Piston needs to be change to K24A2 or the Piston out of the CL9 and rods which are made for it

Plus u will need a head swap aswell

When Adam is selling his set, u might have a chance to score some cheap,
Thu Honda Dealer for the piston and rings is close to 800+ incl Gst

It will be smart to get aftermarket piston with a higher compression aswell


THose K24a will be good if u are planning to sleeve it to build a proper high end+ power motor combo

[patman45]

SPAM ...

I will just buy this car off you once you finish with it. Ann said she doesnt like driving the EG anymore becasue she said people gave her funny look !
Trade in maybe ?? She wont be driving the holden either because the graphics is just about to go on. Haha hard to please

[Genkei]

You can keep da EG ! ! !
She can have da EP ! ! !
Both K24 ofcoz ! ! ! whahaha

Or get that other EP as it is sell the K20A thats init and we can build another motor for it

U need the Holden to tow my new car ! ! !

[tcuf]

Buy my EP3 and get Jacky to do motor swap for you.
Mine looks better than his one

[Coupe-R]

Looking forward to seeing more of this, as I have only ever dabbled in B series.

just a point here

to be honest

dont really like . . . but no choice, plus is cheap
if i can get a aem for 2500 ill rather try that

( is just me . . . never liked Hondata )
Spoken to few Top Us Honda builder and racer, it was the last on the list of wat they recommended

Not saying is bad, it has lots of feature and not hard to tune


wont be using it for a heavy K build, i know there is cars out there making over 250kw at wheels NA with it

Skunk2 Delta drag car was using it for a short while b4 upgrading it to a M800

So you think these racers could get MORE power using a motec on there K series vs using a K pro.
I would be very suprised if they could and would love to know WHY?
as long as the ecu is fast enough, can fully control timing and fuel and has good features it will still be a good ECU.
Maybe it doesn't have advanced features like spark dwell time and many other small little things for torque + power squeezing?

Also as you say jacky, i bet you will be able to tune a K pro faster than any other ECU you can get for the K motor.

Its just what you are used to I guess 8)

[Genkei]

Well

Is it true a better ecu makes more power ?
Yes and No . . .

put it this way, a better computer runs more stable, not the ecu itself, it needs the wiring to go with it

Most will think, Honda engine Loom are made pretty good right?

The reason why some cars with hardcore ignition or even with a strong external coil, their car will miss fires at times or does random shi . . . .

Factory wiring arent well sheilded, which it will cause interfernce with in the car, more earth for the ECU or on the car only minimize very little of the problem

If u open up the later engine loom, u will often find wires for the ignition signal are twisted together, thicker wire and have earth sheild around.
But twisting them together, the magnetic feild around the wire will be cancel out, which will take the interfernce away.

And for the cars that runs in NHRA or deep in the 9s, most of them run on meth and they need PRETTY Strong Sparks to make that fuel ignite. And to do that u need a ECu that can reali on and it can mis a beat ! if the car blows up infront of the crowd . . team and the company names goes down . . .

So for the big boys it is important to have a Ecu that cant run into problem

( im sure i heard more then once at the drags, there are problem within the chipped ecu )


For a street car ? ? getting more power with a better ecu? . . not really butS ! there are difference within them and the features it provide not just suit the user

Ok ill cut the story short
This was maybe 2 years ago before decidin wat ecu is best for MY EG

There is a guy in nz, when over to Usa for a car event

His not really a Honda man himself so he wasnt bias to any ecu of brand, but he was talkin to few top guys and team over there together, asking for suggestion and abit tech sharin, wat is good and wat is bab bahbahbah

These are guys running NHRA event there told him . . .

AEM ECU was rated No.1 but not all the teams can use it due to confict with the team

Motec- only the M8 series can support I-vtec, good and stable computer but over priced for most user

Power Fc was highly recommanded for street and circuit use. But only for B and H series

HKs F-Con can support I Vtec. But not commonly use in the states or over the world. Only the HKs dealer can have access to the software - ( hard to find tuner )

Hondata - is good wat it is, similar to Power FC, lots of feature but not a very stable ecu, good price for wat it offers

( THE MOST IMPORTANT Feature !! in the ECU is DATALOGGING ! ! ! )


To me ?
Well i cant be stuff paying more then 2k+ ECU for a Road car and relooming it, is not like i needed to have certain power i need to get or doin major racing or event work, plus there is not much option i can go with SO Hondata will be the way to go

I was planning to reflash the STd computer with the Honda OEM software, but talkin to a guy that came over from Honda Japan, he said is not as easy as i Think !

Just a note, all the new K series ECU can be reprogram by Honda Factory. This was stated in the training book maybe 6 years ago but i never looked into it

[CL7R]

Originally Posted by Genkei

...Just a note, all the new K series ECU can be reprogram by Honda Factory. This was stated in the training book maybe 6 years ago but i never looked into it

if it is true maybe I shall get a TODA 02A cam which is compatible with factory ECU and get you to tune it hahahaha

[Genkei]

havent tried yet, plus we are not suppose to . . .

Mines from Japan got in trouble from Nissan . . . after they have been into the R35 program and reflashed . . . going to court soon too



Also another note is
Most of the heavy engine with big cams . . variable cam timing is takin out anyway and is back to the old adjustable cam gears, Because the cam's are so big and not much clearnce, u dont really need to or cant run it


So even a old skool Link ECu with few output is enough Fan and Vtec can run a K Series motor
if u know wat ur doin even a Power FC possible to run it aswell


BTW the Box is back together after few lunch time and tea break
Had to put new Diff bearings in it, coz it was bit dodgy

Thanks fo the boys at Honda Newmarket

JasonC, SteveB and Manoj Aka MKESHA ! ! ! !

[CL7R]

But strangely Spoon and J's Racing both have full ECU available...

[Genkei]

is not that strange

well same goes to all . .

1.first those ECu are made to run Jap Fuel . . so putting in local fuel wont work with it

2. u will only get the best out of ur set up if its tune it to ur mods and ur engine

3. you cant go into those computer and retune the map or change the setting, so basically you are buying the data only


Someone that i know has a FD2 wanting to remove 180ks speed limit and getting it tuned . . he was planning on getting a Spoon Or Mugen Ecu from oversea
But after explaining that to him which the above problem apply, he had to think twic . . is that the way to go?

Admin . . . if u can ( can u move these post into another thread ) getting abit messy

[Gudgen]

a la! nice tech info. so your doing a streetable rabbit, whats the "crappest" ecu you'd settle for?

[Hayce]

This is awesome stuff, it's great you are open to sharing your knowledge

That said, I'm having a bit of a hard time following this, can you explain what you mean by "stable" ecu's a bit clearer?

Having only played with B myself the wiring is pretty decent. Dizzy and coil wires EG being shielded from origin to source, arguably the biggest interference makers. There isn;t a lot of earths though and the common earth/power could be a hinderence at high high output which I assume is what your really targeting?

[Genkei]

Well all aftermarket ECU are good, but different ecu for different job . .
As long as u can change the data or setting and it doesnt break down, is good enough for the job

I already have a K pro sitting here that i can use, so might aswell use it, im not saying they are shit ( everyone thinks im saying Hondata is shit )
If u think im a person that only goes for brand . . . then . . .
The reason i brought a motec for the EG in the first build was because, there is chance ill get another car later on which i dont have to buy another ecu for the new car ( and that was suppoe to be a CT9A ) but having the M48, will allow me to run it on both cars just by changing the data on it ( or other cars )
so in long terms, those computer is the way to go
Compare to 7 years ago, most computer were $$$$$, i remember the first power FC i brought from oversea was $2500 nzd, that was consider cheap ! ! ! now days ppl paying $1300 for a ecu or $2500 Fitted and tune still complain is expensive

Well everyone has they own value for the words expensive

Hey K Pro is one of the best ECU u can run and the price is fair, it will do the job, Wat else can i use? that can support all the features
Everyone runs them all over the world, even the Japs use them which they never do, well less should i say.

I have done few cars with K Pro, runs fine, nothing wrong with it, just not use to the interface thats all, Coz instead of going across like all the other ecu mapping, it goes downward while u r reving it up.

PLus
i dont see the point to run normal adjustable cam gears for a setup like that or running a fancy Ecu over 2k, plus u can actually get more turn/degree out of the factory cam gears according to Tony from Skunk2. Same thing they told Adam when i ordered a set of Skunk2 Cam gears for K series.

[Genkei]

Originally Posted by Hayce

This is awesome stuff, it's great you are open to sharing your knowledge

sorry guys if i dont explain it clearly, im lazy to proof read it and i just type as i go, trying my best to do few things at once


But yes u got my point on the interference, it does happens but no one knows why because this happen to one of the build , it took few top local tuners to sort it out. Which was really dumb !

When i mean "Stable "

Example:

- All the feature build in the computer should work everytime ! or at less 99% !
- Data doesnt go missing ! ! ! or change itself ! ! ! ( E manage often does that )
- The ECu doesnt fault while driving oR racing - we do see at the drag that cars runs into problem cause of the computer, Dennis ?
- and few more



The problem that always occur on Hondata is
Different version of software, this always causes the problem but as most tuner will know by now, it is best to update software at all time.

Andre short Suggested, if a customer runs a Hondata in their car, before connected with another laptop that hasnt been used before, make sure they have back up on the old data ! !

I think eve Frank had this problem at Beyond in the early days of S300, data going missing or doesnt save

If the the S300 program in the Ecu is an older version and connected to a newer version
Data will go missing just like that because it will try and update the data inside

which later on u ll ned the old data to transfer it back over IF that happens

This is taken from the Motec M800 spec list

Improved Noise Rejection – Programmable Filter Characteristics: Programmable filter characteristics allow the noise filter characteristics to be adjusted to suit the sensor system which gives improved noise rejection. This ensures the integrity of the trigger signals even in the most noisy environments.

BUT the way ! ! Maybe im wrong . . but thats just the way i learnt . . . Dont trust the internet too much

[Hayce]

Ah right on gotcha, now I know your talking about the software on board it makes much more sense.

I've also heard a few issues with lap top syncing specifically. Generally speaking for B series at least I thought the stock looms were pretty much fine, the problem does get a little compounded on race cars though as they tend to "buddy" up the engine loom with other extra ancillaries.

Anyway, keep it up dude, makes for good reading

[Coupe-R]

Sorry I didn't want to clog up the post so I was PM'in you jacky, but I thought I would share this.

- The ECu doesnt fault while driving oR racing - we do see at the drag that cars runs into problem cause of the computer, Dennis ?
- and few more

OK, MUCH of the problems are poor install jobs or user error.

Hondata is just a chipped factory ECU, same way I chip the ecu using crome to tune, except hondata has a built in chip emulator and datalogger. (quite a good combo)

Anyway, from the factory OBD1 ecu has 4 spots where you can add filtering capacitors that you are supposed to add when chipping an ecu. MANY people (over half) don't add these.

they are a precaution JUST incase there is any noise that could cause bits of data to not make it from the EEPROM to the main MCU on the ECU.

Check out some auto P30's, they are chipped from the factory (they run the bin from the EEPROM as opposed to the OKI or ST MCU) and they have these capacitors in positions C49 & C50, C91 & C92.
Surface mount capacitors:
C49&C50 - 4700pF
C91/C92 - 10pF
Also poor solder jobs, can cause a prob at the drags (massive vibration) further more, swapped laptops: each time you plug in a USB device to a different comport in the laptop it will change the comport number. Likewise when swapping laptops. If the user is a monkey and doesn't set this up correctly, or install the USB drivers then there will be problems or no connection at all.

About the old software vs new software, thats a given with any MAJOR ecu tuning software change. (sometimes the values are put in a different hex location in the new calibration file , therefore will cause a corrupt bin and a solid CEL light)
Revlimit had the same prob when the tuner was using an old software version for the LINK so anychanges they made weren't working correctly.

In a nut shell, proper install and a user that knows what they are doing should be fine. (I have not experienced EMI so cannot comment. Many run stock ignition so I have not found any EMI problems so far)

NOTE: two things I did not know about K pro
"
The stock JDM and US O2 sensor is wide band and can read from 11.5:1 to 30:1 A/F ratios." (hmm wonder how well they work)
"
The K-Pro ECU is not real-time updateable, however most changes to tables and settings can be uploaded in 1-2 seconds. " (CRAPPPY!!!)

Use of non resistor spark plugs in a K series can cause massive noise issues
Tech - K-Series Spark Plug Interference Warning

Sorry this is so off topic, just food for thought

[Genkei]

can admin tidy up this post?

getting to a point, i cant be stuff updatin, if u can . . please moving the ecu related post to a new thread will be good


Updated

New Wheels and rocket cover was send away to painting, should be back this week

ill try and get he Baffle plate for the K24 sump send away this week to be CNC cut( depends if i have time to drop it off ) . Or ill just cut it and weld it up at home

Might buy a RBC intake also for dyno testing, cause they are always recommended the best intake mainfold for the job

NEw Engine Loom arrived within a week !

Still waiting on a oil pump unit

Now just matter of time and get into and build

[KamiCrazy]

Hey great thread going here.

You post on k20a.org as well right? I've been lurking there for a couple of years, doing a little research here and there on doing a k swap. Appreciate the info you are sharing.

How much did your k engines set you back? I'm looking for a k20a PRC/PRD engine at the moment.

[Genkei]

naa not really but i am on the forum

for more details u can contact me on pm