benefits of head porting and polish.....???

[hsvtec]

where in the power curve would we expect the most gains from this work
and would we loose torque?

[aazaa]

give kelford Cams a call, they will set you in the right direction for your H22a, the Gladstone racing civic head was designed and built by kelford Cams and they have torque and bundles of it all the way through the rev range.. and remember kelfords do have their H22a Drag car :wink: so they must know something good about them.

[Horny_Devil]

doent really matter at the end of the day the only factor is gonna be the cost on ur wallet.

my D15B head is flowing a shit load more than stock. and ud be pushing to find a cam that could take all the flow.

porting and polishing is an art and u need to have it done by a professional who knows there stuff.

doesnt really matter what head u start with as they are both gonna flow a lot better after the P&P and unless ur gonna run a huge turbo setup or an even bigger cam then i doubt it will make much difference.

a mild P&P will cost u about $4-600 and is just a basic clean up of the ports and a bit of a polish. it will flow a lot better than the stock head and will handle almost any NA setup u can throw at it.

or u can go for the race P&P where they go deep into the ports and around the valve stems and into the bowls. this is gonna cost u a lot more im the region of $1200-1600 but ur head will flow a shitload more. just make sure u have it flowed before and after to see the difference it can make. this setup is not normall nessary on an NA setup as they dont flow as much as a turbo.

really its up to u which one u go but unless u have something thats gonna aid in the flow like high compression 12:1+ or a cam then ur not gonna get the best out of it. a P&P works hand in hand with other mods on ur car.

hope that helps

[cubic]

I voted for the P+P head, but it depends on who does it. You can go backwards if it's done wrong!

[Non Vtec]

P & P does make a difference. Personally the next head I get done I will get flowed independantly and then get it ported and flow it again so i know how much difference it makes. Instead of just having best guess or someone doing all the work and flowing in one hit.
Kelfords would be a good place to talk to, they might be able to sort you out with a good deal and good workmanship...

Plus shipping isnt a hassle when there gonna do the job properly..

The problems with some small shops like Speed Fcator, Beyond 2, etc is that they dont have the gear to test the heads themselves and they dont just specialize in engine building.. If you want the best results use people that specialize...

[chuckles2]

i think the euro-r head has "higher" ports so has much more potential (smoother angle to valves), i might be wrong.

[hsvtec]

can anyone back that up?

7 VOTES to the ported black top head......0 TO EURO -R...

[F1ERCE]

If the H22A Euro R head vs the standard H22 head is anything like the P73 (B18C Type R head) vs the P30 B16A head, then there will be slight differences in the valve throat (hand polished) and possibly, like chuckles2 said, the seat or height of the ports themselves.

Generally the rule is that if you start with a newer head, the better everything is - valve guides aren't as worn, the valves are still in good nick, the alloy, LMA's, rockers, etc etc etc. Of course, you can replace all these things, but that's extra $$. So with a Euro R head as opposed to, say, a cylinder head out of a BB1/4 prelude, you might not need to replace these things.

Then again I am sure you can out perform a standard Euro R head by working a normal H22A head. Personally I would reccomend working the Euro R head if you could afford it.

There is some good power to be made from cylinder head modification, but it is a fine art. If you are dying to crack your head apart I would do the camshafts, cam gears, valve springs, retainers, (valves?), a good valve seat cut, etc all at once, or not bother at all.

Why don't you talk to Mark @ Beyond2 about it. He has plenty of experience in this field, and knows some real good engine builders. He sends his cylinder heads off to another shop to get them to work on it - like Gary says, it's a precise art and they don't ahve the equipment in the shop to do it. That doesn't mean he doesn't know what needs to be done to get them to start making power - out of everybody I know I think he's probably the person who has tried every single imaginable combination of Honda motors and modifications over the past 15 years.

[Horny_Devil]

ported head is always gonna flow more then a stock head. even a B18CR vs a B18C with P&P the one with the P&P will flow more

[F1ERCE]

Originally Posted by Horny_Devil

ported head is always gonna flow more then a stock head. even a B18CR vs a B18C with P&P the one with the P&P will flow more

Of course it is. Although, my point is that it's always better to start with a newer head than an older one due to wear and tear.

cfm doesn't always necessary equal to oodles of power - otherwise we'd all be running oversized valves and have double the port openings - why don't you google that too?

[Horny_Devil]

Originally Posted by F1ERCE

cfm doesn't always necessary equal to oodles of power - otherwise we'd all be running oversized valves and have double the port openings - why don't you google that too?

ur correct on that one but if u have supporting mods to go with it it really does help. a bigger cam higher compression bigger throttle body etc are all gonna help.

as for oversized valves its probably more of a cost factor than anything as u dont need these to make a deciant wack of power in a Street NA or FI car. only when u are pushing for every last hp does it come into play.

[aazaa]

also watch out... as was found out last night / early hours of this morning.. FACELIFT heads are different to pre facelift h22a heads.. the manifolds stud patterns, and the VTEC controller. 8O dont ask why.. we dont know

[chuckles2]

wow just had a thought i dont think euro-r's have EGR but normal h22a's do so there will be differences in the head for this, thats if they don't have EGR im not 100% sure.

oversizing valves is a bad idea you will end up shrouding the flow if you do as the valves will be to close to the bore when open.

Also euro-r has a mild factory p & p and i believe similar to a f20b they have a decent 3 angle valve job. Eric?

[Cyrus]

Originally Posted by chuckles2

wow just had a thought i dont think euro-r's have EGR but normal h22a's do so there will be differences in the head for this, thats if they don't have EGR im not 100% sure.

oversizing valves is a bad idea you will end up shrouding the flow if you do as the valves will be to close to the bore when open.

Also euro-r has a mild factory p & p and i believe similar to a f20b they have a decent 3 angle valve job. Eric?

euro-r does have EGR, and yes the euro-r head is different to the prelude h22a heads thats y a bit of modification will be needed to fit a euro-r intake manifold into a normal h22a.

[b16a2]

How much for decent port and polish?

[CIVTEC]

Originally Posted by Horny_Devil

a mild P&P will cost u about $4-600 and is just a basic clean up of the ports and a bit of a polish. it will flow a lot better than the stock head and will handle almost any NA setup u can throw at it.

or u can go for the race P&P where they go deep into the ports and around the valve stems and into the bowls. this is gonna cost u a lot more im the region of $1200-1600 but ur head will flow a shitload more. just make sure u have it flowed before and after to see the difference it can make. this setup is not normall nessary on an NA setup as they dont flow as much as a turbo.

^^ :wink:

[Horny_Devil]

Originally Posted by b16a2

How much for decent port and polish?

depends on what u call deciant at the end of the day. unless ur running big cams then just get a mild one ull notice gains right through the revrange. for a race motor or simular go all out as money usually isnt a problem

[Non Vtec]

unfortunately bi cams and big ports don't really match to well without big compression.. you can easily over port for a motor thats under 12.5:1 once you start going bigger you will see the gains..
I hope to have some new info avaliable in the new year as to the difference the compression makes to a ported and polished set-up with big cams etc... :wink:

[boofhead]

Originally Posted by b16a2

How much for decent port and polish?

well thats not a hard one to answer, basically a std head only has so much you can remove to make the ports ideal for a factory head
kelford can do a good port job for 6-800

if youve got alot more mods specifically OS valves then you need alot more porting
depends on a lot of the factory specs, or if you have changed cams and compression and so on....
like the crutial short side radius
and manafold entry angle
which are pretty good on a honda

remember type r integs are factory ported and polished std
so theres no point in doing that one

the h22a isnt really a work of art so yes porting would be a good idea
unless you have the type-s prelude engine that is factory ported like the type r

would def go for the euro over the older head - wins by a mile factory
that doesnt mean the ultimate potential is differnt
find out what kelford use
give them a call see what they reccomend

Ph 064 3 366 4514,
Fax 064 3 366 4515

Originally Posted by chuckles2

oversizing valves is a bad idea you will end up shrouding the flow if you do as the valves will be to close to the bore when open.

try telling that to kelfords - might be the reason theres is 2.3ltr though
they would def have oversized valves to get 330cfm out of that head

another factor their is the lift of the cams and the angle of the valves.....

[chuckles2]

Originally Posted by boofhead

try telling that to kelfords - might be the reason theres is 2.3ltr though
they would def have oversized valves to get 330cfm out of that head

another factor their is the lift of the cams and the angle of the valves.....

thats cause they have hugely modified the head including extending the bore of the combustion chamber which unshrouds the valves and also machined the combustion chamber back around the valves, we aint talking about a dedicated race car here it's a street car.

Also a head may flow 330cfm on the flow bench but like I said it's the cylinder bore that can shroud the flow and on the flow bench their aint no block therefor no bore to shroud flow, hence when the head is installed it will flow less as the portion of the valve close to the bore will have restricted flow.

There is alot more to it then people think, some people would be amazed if they spend one day in a engine rebuilders.

[boofhead]

true true
fair point
nearly every aspect of a head can be modified
just depends on practicality - which lets face it doesnt happen on a street car
so