Cams

[David R]

Alright, time to get some proper discussion going (unlike the other getarotor/v8 thread), so how about those who have upgraded their cams give us a bit of feedback. Let us know the kind of engine, other mods (valvetrain, compression, etc), the kind of cams (and spec's if possible) used, etc. How much of a difference did it make, would you do anything different nexttime?? etc etc etc..........

[baked-]

from what i have read ( not expereince ) stage 1 cams will give around 20 hp gains with I/H/E not really bang for buck as the next stage up you need to modifie the head which is probally gunna cost more than the cams them selves.

one way to be able to rev those stage one cams out is to take your factory b16/18 springs out of the intake side and put them in place of the exhuast springs and then go and buy some type-R intake springs (both inner and outer ) and put them on the intake side.

should be good for 8750RPM

just something i learnt during the way

[boott]

ok someone must be able to throw more in than that! like good cams for b16a, sould you port and polish as well? good manafacture?
anything?
we have this club to share info dont we.

[Xsi]

Prepare to spend money on tuning. I have CTR's dropped in and noticed a decrease in midrange power, about the same top end and a big increase in noise (i think the noise it what makes people think "whoa I have mad camz j0"). Once I make a spring compressor I'll be installing my ITR valvetrain and hopefully getting some tuning which should give a reasonable HP boost
Even so, next time I would go for S2s1 or 2's, and may still.
GANSAN had a similar opinion on dropped in CTR's but got a nice HP boost with a gizzmo tune.

[Matty]

Popular opinion (of at least two people ) is that cams need higher compression to really come to life.

[VTECNU]

so would you get 20hp increase from type r cams to s2s1 cams? with high comp pistons and upgraded valve train? what baked said

[Kelsonmassif]

just a question on cams, i read threads on CTR...ITR cams put in.... now what i dont get is the money that is put in for such a small increase, why not just go all out? and get full upgraded valve train skunk2 stage 2 cams etc.... i mean it allready cost like $1000 and upgrade valve train over time $800+. why just be type r spec?

why the suttlety?

[PizzaBoy]

Originally Posted by //////VTEC\\\\\\

so would you get 20hp increase from type r cams to s2s1 cams? with high comp pistons and upgraded valve train? what baked said

It all depends on what device you have for tuning your car (VAFC, gizzmo, hondata, motec etc) and the abilities of the person doing the tuning. If you let your mate who reckons he can tune anything have a go you could quite easily loose 20hp!

Also when you see power increases quoted anywhere for a certain product they are almost always a rough guide as no manufacturer can take into account every combination of parts out there, you might only make a 12hp gain or you might make a 30hp gain, it all depends on many different variables that are different with each engine

[Matty]

Originally Posted by Kelsonmassif

just a question on cams, i read threads on CTR...ITR cams put in.... now what i dont get is the money that is put in for such a small increase, why not just go all out? and get full upgraded valve train skunk2 stage 2 cams etc.... i mean it allready cost like $1000 and upgrade valve train over time $800+. why just be type r spec?

why the suttlety?

Coz itz Type R bruh!

I guess a lot of people figure that you can't get more reliable than factory gear, it's readily available and it costs less than other aftermarket stuff. Type R cams are a few hundred dollars cheaper than (for instance) Skunk2 cams.

Personally, if I'm going to be opening up my engine (or at least paying someone else to do it) I'd rather get the best I could first time. That way I'm not going to be wishing I'd gone for more in a few weeks'/months' time.

[Kelsonmassif]

Originally Posted by Matty

Coz itz Type R bruh!

I guess a lot of people figure that you can't get more reliable than factory gear, it's readily available and it costs less than other aftermarket stuff. Type R cams are a few hundred dollars cheaper than (for instance) Skunk2 cams.

Personally, if I'm going to be opening up my engine (or at least paying someone else to do it) I'd rather get the best I could first time. That way I'm not going to be wishing I'd gone for more in a few weeks'/months' time.

exaclty, seems like a waste IMO just to go type ARRGH spec mang.

[Xsi]

The price difference between ITR and Skunk 2 is a lot bigger than you think. CTR cams are around $500 a pair second hand now days (cams don't exactly wear out so who cares) and a valvetrain for around $300. Install yourself and get some tuning and you'll get a nice setup for around $1000.
You're not likely to find a 2nd hand pair of skunk2 cams so they're $1450 new, add in a valvetrain for $450 and even if you install yourself you're looking at more than twice the cost of CTR. If you want Skunk2 retainers they only last about 20 000 miles before they fly apart and blow up your engine.

[Lorolla]

If you want Skunk2 retainers they only last about 20 000 miles before they fly apart and blow up your engine.

??????

[Xsi]

Titanium retainers are for racing where parts are replaced regularly.
People think titanium is magic and lasts forever but it doesn't last anywhere near as long as the stock retainers, do a search on honda-tech.com and you'll see a few engines runied by worn-through Skunk2 titanium retainers.

[gazmaster]

Originally Posted by Xsi

Titanium retainers are for racing where parts are replaced regularly.
People think titanium is magic and lasts forever but it doesn't last anywhere near as long as the stock retainers, do a search on honda-tech.com and you'll see a few engines runied by worn-through Skunk2 titanium retainers.

So say I wanna go with skunk2 stage 2 cams (which is in the pipeline), what retainers etc could/should I use that will last? Or do all aftermarket retainers gradually wear????

[Matty]

Yeah I've wondered that myself. I guess titanium ones are supposed to be lighter to allow higher revs (due to lighter valvetrain mass). Are Type R retainers lighter than stock, and would they be any better?

[Xsi]

Type R retainers are the same as stock B16a ones, anything different you hear comes from Type R owners :wink:
GANSAN used portflow retainers, might want to PM him about how those went. I'm considering getting some Skunk2 with some kind of friction coating, and keeping a close eye on them. If you are getting someone else to install them then that may not be an option.
Check out this pic, as you can see the stock retainer on the right isn't worn while the titanium one on the left is paper-thin.

[asmodeus]

Originally Posted by baked-

from what i have read ( not expereince ) stage 1 cams will give around 20 hp gains with I/H/E not really bang for buck as the next stage up you need to modifie the head which is probally gunna cost more than the cams them selves.

one way to be able to rev those stage one cams out is to take your factory b16/18 springs out of the intake side and put them in place of the exhuast springs and then go and buy some type-R intake springs (both inner and outer ) and put them on the intake side.

should be good for 8750RPM

just something i learnt during the way

Sup Shaynz0r its Jay

my new gf ...
http://www.nzhondas.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24510

[Pnut]

Titanium is really not a high wear material, despite all the hype it is given. As far as comparing it to steels it is a softer metal, and while can be a pain to machine it has very average wear resisitant properties. If you want logevity you should really consider something else made of a high grade steel. Same goes for ghey aluminium cam gears . . .

[gen-2-vtec]

So what if you have a ITR with I/H (dont want an exaust. its big enuf) Just throw stage 2 cams in and get a gizzmo tune and thats it?

20hp for under $1000 is damn good i.m.o When else do you get such an increase??

You could spend that just on headers and not see that gain. I/h/e might only see that gain @ the wheels. Cost you $2000, maby more....

no one can see the cams either...hehe stealthy. :twisted:

[Pnut]

I doubt you would see anything near that 20hp unless you already have the I/H/E, there is no point getting some agressive cams and ECU to suit when the engine is restricted in its breathing elsewhere.

[gen-2-vtec]

what increase would be expected with stage two?

[David R]

Originally Posted by gen-2-vtec

So what if you have a ITR with I/H (dont want an exaust. its big enuf) Just throw stage 2 cams in and get a gizzmo tune and thats it?

Either you wouldnt get the full gains of the cams by sticking to the factory rev limit, or you could get gizzmo to remove or raise the rev limit and run the risk of it going bang.

The gains from stage 2 cams would vary considerably depending on the rest of the engine, computer and tuning. Some of the guys on H-T have to 200whp with standard ITR bottom end and Stage 2 cams and upgraded valvetrain. Link. Stage 1 cams like S2S1 or TODA A are a good upgrade with the standard ITR valvetrain.

[SoL]

Originally Posted by gen-2-vtec

So what if you have a ITR with I/H (dont want an exaust. its big enuf) Just throw stage 2 cams in and get a gizzmo tune and thats it?

20hp for under $1000 is damn good i.m.o :twisted:

what you need to remember here is that you cant use stage2 cams with the standard cam springs and retainers, as stage2 cams has an excessively high lift... you run the risk of the valves and piston saying hello to each other....

you will also need to raise the compression reasonably high to make use of stage2 cams, thus thin head gasket, high comp pistons etc.... which means you then need to have a head that flows well....

and to make use of stage2 cams etc... you need to rev way past 8000rpm... most of the power would be from 7000-9000rpm... so you'll need a new ecu, tuning etc... and may also need some cam gears to set things up properly etc....

therefore... type R cams dont give as much gains as skunk stage2 etc... but they can run reasonably well with a stock or ITR valvetrain.... that's the big difference....

[NAspirated]

Originally Posted by Xsi

Titanium retainers are for racing where parts are replaced regularly.
People think titanium is magic and lasts forever but it doesn't last anywhere near as long as the stock retainers, do a search on honda-tech.com and you'll see a few engines runied by worn-through Skunk2 titanium retainers.

this is somewhat of an exageration. Titanium is a hard brittle metal with amazing wear characteristics.

People have problems using titanium retainers because they dont set things up properly. wear like that on a retainer is caused by incorrect valve lash and an excessively high seat pressure. If the springs and the retainer are tight at installation then there is no movement or scraping of the retainer, hence you wont have a problem.

Many companies give Lifetime waranties on their retainers. the only problem is, if a retainer did let go, their warranty doesnt cover every other part of your engine.

Plus, Skunk2's are pretty shit goods anyway, there are hundreds of better companies out there.

[Pnut]

Originally Posted by NAspirated

this is somewhat of an exageration. Titanium is a hard brittle metal with amazing wear characteristics.

Sorry but it is not, we use it alot at work, and one of the harder standard grade's and it is not that hard and definately not brittle. It is a biarch to machine without the correct tooling in perfect condition as it has reasonably high abrasive qualities and does not form chips like steel does when machining so is hard to keep dimensionally stable due to heat build up. The grade we use has a hardness of about 45HRC which while hard is not excessivly so, a good quality hardened mould steel can get up to over 60HRC in hardness, carbides even higher (Copper alloys can get to in the 20-30HRC range, aluminium even less once under the hard oxidised skin).

Titanium however has a high strength to weight ratio which is why it is used extensivly in the aerospace industry, far greater than aluminium which is also used in aerospace or most steels. It also has really good thermal insulation properties for a metal, can get up to 1/5 that of most steels which is the reason we use it at work.

We have seen alot of titanium disks squash when clamped into plastic injection molds with incorrect clearances, the steel plates will compress it and that is a higher grade (harder) - you should see the lower grades deform 8O .

Personally after seeing how the "magical" titanium behaves first hand in other applications unless i was looking to have a race engine which is rebuilt and every part checked every couple of races i wouldn't use it in something as delecate at my valvetrain. I would venture to say people buy it for the "name brand" as it were, "I have Titanium valve retainers" sounds cool to people who know it is used to keep the space shuttle in the air . It just doesn't have the right characteristics for logevity of parts in that application, and you can't tell me that it would make much difference to your average 9000rpm honda's valvetrain weight.