Hub Centric rings, absolutely necessary?

[DrRubber]

and my angry (LO respose wasnt angry just 11 years of experiance fitting wheels and tyres to cars and encountering the very problems that are real.....Its not because of run out, as I said try swapping stock BMW wheels with different CB's and see what happens with no CBL rings......they have taperd studs.

All I was saying is that wheels are made hubcentric for a reason and that is so the load is not distibuted soley on the studs.

Even when balancing a wheel you can use either a basic cone type balancing thingy or you can use the HAWEKA system which uses a cone from the rear (to keep it hubcentric) as well as big "fingers" which have tapers on them and match to the wheels PCD.....this is without doubt a more Accurate method of balancing wheels.

One of my previous employers insisted that ALL wheels even steelies were balanced using the haweka system.

[Horny_Devil]

strangly greg i know what ur talking about i think i could even balance using both methods which is even more scary

yes they do melt but theyre damn good piece of mind. and id drfinatly not run with out them

when u hit a bump where do u want that force transmitted? onto the studs or onto the hub? and whats going to break first?

[americ_ian]

..... the load goes on the wheel bearings NOT the STUDS.....

H-D ive seen plenty of wheel bearings broken at tracks/circuts.. and the wheel studs are still intact... remember 7,000lb clamping force, we talked about?

greg now your mentioning fancy pans wheel balancers? hmm gues my one at work isnt good enough... i mean, it takes away all of my wheel wobble and steering shake, but i gues that isnt good enough for some..... ?

oh and i got my info from real MECHANICS and ENGINEERS, all with 30+ year experiance x 100 zomgwowfactor!!

[BTLF3D]

has anyone every heard of people breaking studs from NOT using hub rings??

[erichns]

Hmm, I got new wheel nuts for the evo 8 wheels that I will be running and the nuts can actually do 19 turns and touch the top hat of the rotor. That should be really secure then. But is it gonna be centered that well seeing that the wheels and the nuts are made to be flat, not tapered and they're made for each other (that's how mitsubishi nuts are)

[americ_ian]

Originally Posted by BTLF3D

has anyone every heard of people breaking studs from NOT using hub rings??

Personal experience says that this is mostly a sales and marketing function and can't be relied on for accurate technical info.

[DrRubber]

Originally Posted by americ_ian

..... the load goes on the wheel bearings NOT the STUDS.....

H-D ive seen plenty of wheel bearings broken at tracks/circuts.. and the wheel studs are still intact... remember 7,000lb clamping force, we talked about?

greg now your mentioning fancy pans wheel balancers? hmm gues my one at work isnt good enough... i mean, it takes away all of my wheel wobble and steering shake, but i gues that isnt good enough for some..... ?

oh and i got my info from real MECHANICS and ENGINEERS, all with 30+ year experiance x 100 zomgwowfactor!!

Um.....ok maybe you mean something different but what Im talking about is the weight of the vehicle is resting on the studs.....you cant deny that which is exactly my point.

And I only mentioned balencers as an example....Sure a run of the mill balencer works fine...for normal wheels all I use is a basic cone type setup as per whatever anyone uses.....but when doing alloys (when possible) I will use the Haweka type balance plates because I can and because thats how I was trained (OMG tyre guys/mechanics since way back taught me tooOOOO)



And someone asked if they had seen wheel nuts break etc from not using them...My answer is actually no....well Not directly as a result that could be proved.

But as members of this forum can back me up.....due to the fact that CBL rings have cured their problems......they do work !!! you cant argue the fact.....why do you think ALL alloy wheel suppliers suply CBL rings with their wheels ?? for bling factor ??



dosnt happen on every car......but it does happen.

I dont run them on my car at present and it dosnt shake so I wont bother.


http://www.scorpion-racing.co.uk/dyn...HubCentric.pdf

seems most say it depends on the wheels design as to wether they are required or not .

[DrRubber]

Originally Posted by americ_ian

Personal experience says that this is mostly a sales and marketing function and can't be relied on for accurate technical info.

ok now im LOLLOLOLOLOLOLing

they give them to you free when you buy a set of wheels......how can that be considerd marketing ??

[MMJA]

Umm Greg I don't have hub centric rings do I?

[DrRubber]

Originally Posted by MMJA

Umm Greg I don't have hub centric rings do I?

fucked if I know ??

you havnt complained about a shake so probably not., I dont "market them" but if there is a problem that requires them then ill inform the customer that that could be the fix.

[americ_ian]

"ok maybe you mean something different but what Im talking about is the weight of the vehicle is resting on the studs.....you cant deny that which is exactly my point."

the car DOES NOT REST ON THE STUDS.... maybe it would if you didnt do up the wheel nuts....and lowerd the jack/hoist down and let the car rest on them??

the studs provide the clamping force, the friction reacts the loads. The hub is there for centering only.

I haven't found anything that disproves that the hub supports the weight. Most articles from car magazines, wheel manufacturers and even reputable tire/wheel shops state that the lugs only serve a purpose to affix the wheel to hub while the hub bears the load.

once the wheel is "clamped" to the hub, the hub and wheel become one assembly!!!!. This is NO DIFFERENT than a two-piece wheel being bolted together. The load isn't taken at the bolts clamping the two halves together as the wheel is essentially one unit at this point... gahh how can you not understand that!!

To my understanding, the adapter rings only purpose is to help installation by getting the wheel closer to center, making the installation of the lug nuts easier and less likely to scratch the wheel on the sides of the lug nuts, and that wouldnt be professional would it...

[MMJA]

Originally Posted by badcf4

fucked if I know ??

you havnt complained about a shake so probably not., I dont "market them" but if there is a problem that requires them then ill inform the customer that that could be the fix.

Just thought you might have noticed when you were doing my alignment. I don't notice any shaking so hopefully I don't need them. All this talk about them got me a bit worried lol.

[americ_ian]

has no one seen what happens to mazdas hondas toyotas when big huge 18s are fitted for an extended period of time... its the wheel bearings that are stressed.. and fail... not wheel studs....

4x4s?? always adjusting wheel bearings... wheel bearings TAKE the load... not wheel studs....

and certainly not a 4-5mm piece of protruding hub, and certainly not flimsy weak plastic hub centric rings....

[DrRubber]

ok now we're getting somewhere.

To my understanding, the adapter rings only purpose is to help installation by getting the wheel closer to center, making the installation of the lug nuts easier and less likely to scratch the wheel on the sides of the lug nuts, and that wouldnt be professional would it...

They definatly do assist in that department.....And im not actually arguing anything youve said....My point is and has always been that they DO fix shaking problems that a balance cant.
Unfortunatly I cant recall everyone Ive fitted them for other than the last guy who I just pm'd so no doubt he'll chime in at some stage of the week.

In my not so worthy scumbag tyre guy experiances far fewer jap cars with studs poking out experiance the problems.....however anything with a bolt going in (euro shit) is exessivly prone to it.

However We've had it with 4WD's (with 20z au) and everyday civics,corrollas yada yada yada.

Sirwags_NP could also elaborate on this as he has a tonne of experiance with it too.

[DrRubber]

Originally Posted by americ_ian

has no one seen what happens to mazdas hondas toyotas when big huge 18s are fitted for an extended period of time... its the wheel bearings that are stressed.. and fail... not wheel studs....

4x4s?? always adjusting wheel bearings... wheel bearings TAKE the load... not wheel studs....

and certainly not a 4-5mm piece of protruding hub, and certainly not flimsy weak plastic hub centric rings....

ok your talking about transmitted load not direct on top of your ass load.

[erichns]

Originally Posted by MMJA

Just thought you might have noticed when you were doing my alignment. I don't notice any shaking so hopefully I don't need them. All this talk about them got me a bit worried lol.

If you don't have centre cap, you should be able to take a look if there's a plastic/metal rings around the hubs then?

[BTLF3D]

Originally Posted by badcf4

why do you think ALL alloy wheel suppliers suply CBL rings with their wheels ?? for bling factor ??

umm no they dont, all the wheels i have bought (rota's, buddyclubs, zoom, konig and also my bro's Works) all do not have the CBL rings included

[DrRubber]

Originally Posted by BTLF3D

umm no they dont, all the wheels i have bought (rota's, buddyclubs, zoom, konig and also my bro's Works) all do not have the CBL rings included

Konigs do come with them.....fuck knows about rotas and the rest etc

Ok so ill change my statement then.....any wheels from YHI,BG,SSA,M&T direct,cc mcphails.......the big players in the new zealand alloy wheel market....suplly their wheels with hub rings......unless they are hubcentric to the vehicle they are supplied for.

k

[BTLF3D]

Originally Posted by badcf4

Konigs do come with them.....fuck knows about rotas and the rest etc

Ok so ill change my statement then.....any wheels from YHI,BG,SSA,M&T direct,cc mcphails.......the big players in the new zealand alloy wheel market....suplly their wheels with hub rings......unless they are hubcentric to the vehicle they are supplied for.

k

"New Zealand..."
im sure if they were that important the big companies (who would be selling a shit load more than anyone in NZ) like Volk, Work, Buddyclub etc would supply them
Correct?

[americ_ian]

Originally Posted by badcf4

ok now im LOLLOLOLOLOLOLing

they give them to you free when you buy a set of wheels......how can that be considerd marketing ??

hmm or the fact that they melt, a worth nothing, and they're proper replacements are

"Still for $20 or so I reckon they are well worth it."

$20 for 50c worth of alloy... come on... hello mr markup

Originally Posted by badcf4

ok your talking about transmitted load not direct on top of your ass load.

was mearly pointing out what fails the MOST in that part of a vehicle...

it works the same way... still, load is not carried on studs....

which is the fact im arguing...

oh and "big players" do not change reality, only some peoples' perception of it.

[americ_ian]

Originally Posted by BTLF3D

"New Zealand..."
im sure if they were that important the big companies (who would be selling a shit load more than anyone in NZ) like Volk, Work, Buddyclub etc would supply them
Correct?

haha maybe they are trying to make up for the fact that they produce lesser quality "they see me rollin" wheels, and they need help getting them center on a rim??

[DrRubber]

so bmw wheels are shit quality too ???

Dont know about the likes of buddy club or whatever but in the case of mugen rims they are made hubcentric.....so they wont come with hub rings......

[americ_ian]

mugen are made to OEM specs...hayden talking about AFTER MARKET....

and i dont rank BMW highly on the quality side of things...

takes one look at any e36 with any sort of decent ks, and watches the interior fall apart.. and i cant say the same for generic bmw mags... they arnt exactly light well thought out designed mags eh..