solution to exhaust noise issues

[sirwags_np]

since its the hot topic these days(exhaust noise), heres a solution to all the moaning and bitching......

first and foremost, mods, is nzhondas registered with a governing body?

if so then that will help. if not is it on the cards?

now, i know for a fact car club members have a lot more pull when it comes to helping make laws legit.

eg, left hand drive exemptions, mudguard exemptions etc......

now if you are a member of a recognised car club, that is registered with a governing body(nzhra,nsra etc) why not get the governing body to stand up to the law makers and get them to make an exemption for official members cars? maybe 98-100db.

now of course this would mean you would have to behave, not be caught at illegals etc.

this would be beneficial for targa cars(how they pass noise tests i dont know....) hot rods, street machines, "car enthusiasts" imports, rotor owners etc, giving them some breathing space from the law enforcers.

now, how to prove it? have a special exhaust cert from ltsa for the authorised people, that the police will recognise, and is ONLY available to the appropriate car club members.

so how much to charge if passed into law?

i think $200-250 would be an appropriate fee for the ability to be able to have a performance exhaust.

also starts to sound cheap when faced with fines and demerit points/loss of licence etc.

now for those that are sceptical, how did cert come about? it was hot rodders sick of all the new laws and decided to make a way to allow SAFE mods while being legal. the correct people listened and thus we now have cert.......

your thoughts?

[lincooln]

yea that sounds like a good idea.
you got any clues as to the punishment if caught at the illegals or something?
just maybe loss of ability to have a louder exhaust?
but could be possible with a bit of work.

[sirwags_np]

Originally Posted by lincooln

yea that sounds like a good idea.
you got any clues as to the punishment if caught at the illegals or something?
just maybe loss of ability to have a louder exhaust?
but could be possible with a bit of work.

no punishment from the law, just up to the individual clubs to make sure thier members behave.

if a club is found to be constantly pulling negative attention to itself, the governing body can dis-own the club, hence the members not being able to have exhaust certs any more.....

soon sort out the few bad apples

[mr_tec]

you do know that after this laws been in effect they will probably try and make the limit less again

[sirwags_np]

Originally Posted by mr_tec

you do know that after this laws been in effect they will probably try and make the limit less again

once something has been made allowable in the cert process, the law makers then have to consult with ltsa, the cert people etc, about wether proposed changes are feasable, and have CAR ENTHUSIASTS that actually vote yes or no.

this way WE actually get to have a say, instead of bitching and moaning about it on a forum(or doing rev limit drivebys of harry duynhovens house, govett ave new plymouth).

[Pommy]

good idea in theory but those who are the judges and decide who are worthy and who are not would have a hell of a job..
the rules would have to be strict, the determination of who is in need of a 100db exhaust system would be quite bias and if the certs were given to the wrong people, old miserable coffin dodgers would moan and the law would be crushed.

IMO most exhausts are unneccessarily loud and certainly not needed anyway i.e sohc vtec with a 2.5 inch with an n1 muffler, or an rb20de auto cef with a straight pipe from the headers :/

but this cert gives the real deal's the ability to have abit of leniancy

[EXSIVE]

Really awesome idea sirwags but unfortunately its easier said than done.
It is possible but would take a helluva lot of time and smart people with formal letters .etc. to make this work.
Im assumming it would be like a cert but you need to belong to a motorsport club (which i think you are getting at).

[VTAKYO]

Wouldn't be feasible given the current atmosphere of the law and "concerned citizens": the introduction of the new laws and their strict enforcement etc. A car on the road at the end of the day is still a road-going vehicle regardless of the owners motorsport affiliations or involvement. It isn't on the road to race, it is there to get from a to b.

Targa cars can run a limited registration, not to mention they have MSNZ exemption cards.. which influences the LVV process - I am not 100% sure regarding the rules, as I only know about things on the clubsport level. Will look through my motorsport manual later.

LTSA, VTNZ, or whoever would become involved would simply query why you can't simply have two exhaust systems (road and race) if you can afford to race your car.

Worth a shot nonetheless...

[sirwags_np]

Originally Posted by VTAKYO

Wouldn't be feasible given the current atmosphere of the law and "concerned citizens": the introduction of the new laws and their strict enforcement etc. A car on the road at the end of the day is still a road-going vehicle regardless of the owners motorsport affiliations or involvement. It isn't on the road to race, it is there to get from a to b.

Targa cars can run a limited registration, not to mention they have MSNZ exemption cards.. which influences the LVV process - I am not 100% sure regarding the rules, as I only know about things on the clubsport level. Will look through my motorsport manual later.

LTSA, VTNZ, or whoever would become involved would simply query why you can't simply have two exhaust systems (road and race) if you can afford to race your car.

Worth a shot nonetheless...

and that is the exact attitude of a lot of people when they tried to bring in certification.....

if everyone looked positively on an idea like this, it would have potential to make it.

Me and my father have brought this up at his hotrod club meeting, and not one person was against the idea.

they are even making submissions to nzhra to get the appropriate actions under way, and if it does get passed, willbe a welcome change(if you are a member of appropriate car clubs)

[David R]

Originally Posted by Pommy

IMO most exhausts are unneccessarily loud and certainly not needed anyway i.e sohc vtec with a 2.5 inch with an n1 muffler, or an rb20de auto cef with a straight pipe from the headers :/

Agreed. The great majority of members [of this club] cars are road cars that occasionally see the race track or drag strip (usually in a not-very-competitive environment). Do they really need a 100db straight-thru exhaust so they can squeeze every last possible kw out of their stock b18cr? Would it really be the end of the world if the new laws mean that you have to replace the N1 fart cannon with a twin-loop of baffled muffler (or silencer)?

Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a higher limit for real race cars that are MANZ approved and running logbooks, competing in competitive events etc. And I think the subjective nature of the new law is BS.

[Dezigns]

Originally Posted by LTSA

If a light motor vehicle covered by the Rule has been modified, so as to increase the noise output from its exhaust system, and the exhaust noise output exceeds that prescribed by the amendment Rule, the vehicle would have to be certified in the same manner as a low volume vehicle, under the Low Volume Vehicle Code.

If I understand correctly, if you have a cert, you're ok?

[DC2r]

Im gettin my exhaust certed so those fuckers cant ping me again

[VTAKYO]

Essentially yes. If you have a cert that just means that you can't get done under the laws for having a non-complying vehicle. However, you can still be done for operating a vehicle in a manner causing disturbance, or whatever the police deem applicable to the situation (disturbance of the peace etc). If you drive normally then I am sure it won't be an issue... You could argue that if your car has passed the cert deeming it within noise limits then it isn't capable if creating what is considered a "disturbance", and the fact you have paid to get a cert shows you actually care about the noise you make. But, other legislation grants the police the ability to use subjective means to determine whether you are too noisy for the surrounding environment - so if Mr Popo is feeling a little stressed he could pick on you. Contradictory law FTW!

[M3_Power]

Originally Posted by sirwags_np

now, how to prove it? have a special exhaust cert from ltsa for the authorised people, that the police will recognise, and is ONLY available to the appropriate car club members.

What you talk of already exists for any one with a modified exhaust system (why have different rules for all road users just because of certain affliation?) - there's already a certification process for modified exhaust systems - what sucks is the limit that's been set and the testing method and procedure - do a bit of research and you'll know.

I am with David R on this one - I personally agree with the new rules that are coming into force, what I don't agree with is the methodology employed to test whether there's been a breach.

[M3_Power]

Originally Posted by VTAKYO

However, you can still be done for operating a vehicle in a manner causing disturbance, or whatever the police deem applicable to the situation (disturbance of the peace etc).

You could argue that if your car has passed the cert deeming it within noise limits then it isn't capable if creating what is considered a "disturbance", and the fact you have paid to get a cert shows you actually care about the noise you make.

Doubt it ... one is aimed at the vehicle itself and whether it conforms with the set standards, whilst the other is aimed at the manner you operate it - two different things.

[VTAKYO]

My point being it is the police who decide if the manner in which you operate it is offensive. There is nothing outlining what is acceptable and what isn't; so if your car is certed and they are still unhappy with it they can say you are operating it too noisily. However, like I say, if you drive it normally and its certed you shouldn't have an issue. But you never know.

[David R]

Originally Posted by LTSA

If a light motor vehicle covered by the Rule has been modified, so as to increase the noise output from its exhaust system, and the exhaust noise output exceeds that prescribed by the amendment Rule, the vehicle would have to be certified in the same manner as a low volume vehicle, under the Low Volume Vehicle Code.

Does this mean that if you modify your exhaust for the purpose of performance, and the increase in noise is just an unfortunate byproduct you'll be alright? Would be pretty hard to prove tho...

[Soichiro]

Easier way...

[Trivium]

Why not just make your car quiet enough for the new laws, then everyone will be legal and no more trouble from police and media? It seems to me a little silly trying to push a few more dB out of the law. Have you actually heard a car @ 90dB? Its still fucking lould. Be grateful they actually thought about this law before passing it, would you rather them just ban ANYTHING with a modded exhaust on it instead?

[MyH22A]

Originally Posted by VTAKYO

other legislation grants the police the ability to use subjective means to determine whether you are too noisy for the surrounding environment - so if Mr Popo is feeling a little stressed he could pick on you. Contradictory law FTW!

So tru i got a ticket for noisy exhaust out on the highway leaving woodend one day ffs ( the Highway and i wasnt tec/n it or nothing either ) I'd had enuff after that BS and took it ta court where i won my case. I hope he pulls me over someother time to so i can give him shit right back.. by waving a certain peice of paper in his face... the f**wit.

[sirwags_np]

Originally Posted by M3_Power

What you talk of already exists for any one with a modified exhaust system (why have different rules for all road users just because of certain affliation?) - there's already a certification process for modified exhaust systems - what sucks is the limit that's been set and the testing method and procedure - do a bit of research and you'll know.

I am with David R on this one - I personally agree with the new rules that are coming into force, what I don't agree with is the methodology employed to test whether there's been a breach.

my reasoning for having exhaust cert for affiliated club members only, is what is the real need for a 16 year old in a auto, non turbo cefiro/laurel/skyline,civic,integra,primera,galant etc, to have a LOUD exhaust?

there is no need what so ever........

now if you are say americ-ian, and have a unique car with a engine swap, that uses the car for motorsport, why should he have to make the car as quiet as a factory 4age ae86?

now if ian is a member of a affiliated club, he then has the freedom to design an exhaust that BEST SUITS the engines new body, with a little more freedom if the room for more mufflers etc doesnt exist.

so basically my idea is to help stamp out the annoying, while HELPING the true enthusiasts enjoy thier vehicles without constant harrassment from public/police.

[M3_Power]

Originally Posted by sirwags_np

now if you are say americ-ian, and have a unique car with a engine swap, that uses the car for motorsport, why should he have to make the car as quiet as a factory 4age ae86?

He doesn't if it's been used for legitimate motorsport use (drag strips and race tracks have specific noise level limits, so he has to adhere to those, in addition to the rules set for motorsport vehicles)

Again the rules that are existing already allow for the sort of things you've mentioned. Racecars have a different set of noise limits to road used vehicles.

Originally Posted by sirwags_np

what is the real need for a 16 year old in a auto, non turbo cefiro/laurel/skyline,civic,integra,primera,galant etc, to have a LOUD exhaust?

* * *
so basically my idea is to help stamp out the annoying, while HELPING the true enthusiasts enjoy thier vehicles without constant harrassment from public/police.

The moment you start differentiating different type of "enthusiasts" to only those cars with difficult engine mods, transplants or whatever you start discriminating against a particular section of the wider car enthusiasts (call them ricers, wannabes, rota lovers whatever I don't care) but you are making subjective stereotypes of all those that modify vehicles.

The rules as it stands are simple - if it's used on the road it needs to meet certain limits ... if it's used for motorsports there's another set of rules it needs to adhere to.

It's the procedures adopted for testing and the enforcements of those rules for the cars used on the road that are problematic (and often unfair) in my opinion.

[sirwags_np]

Originally Posted by M3_Power

He doesn't if it's been used for legitimate motorsport use (drag strips and race tracks have specific noise level limits, so he has to adhere to those, in addition to the rules set for motorsport vehicles)

Again the rules that are existing already allow for the sort of things you've mentioned. Racecars have a different set of noise limits to road used vehicles.



The moment you start differentiating different type of "enthusiasts" to only those cars with difficult engine mods, transplants or whatever you start discriminating against a particular section of the wider car enthusiasts (call them ricers, wannabes, rota lovers whatever I don't care) but you are making subjective stereotypes of all those that modify vehicles.

The rules as it stands are simple - if it's used on the road it needs to meet certain limits ... if it's used for motorsports there's another set of rules it needs to adhere to.

It's the procedures adopted for testing and the enforcements of those rules for the cars used on the road that are problematic (and often unfair) in my opinion.

when certification was first brought in, it was only for those vehicles that were under nzhra membership.

the general public wanted in on this, and so they made it allowed for anyone.what this has done, is made certification a joke to the police, for the amount of people that get a cert, then re-modify thier vehicles to illegal standards. thus meaning the police take your cert take with a grain of salt, and i have personally seen cars pink stickered for already certed mods, where the police didnt believe the tag.

hence, why my reason for only allowing car club members that are affiliated to certain governing bodies to be allowed the exhaust cert.

take for example, a REPLICA 1923 t-bucket.

now the body was fibreglassed in 2005, the chassis was engineered in 2006, the motor is a brand new crate big block chev, with a big supercharger added(400 plus hp), but because its registered as a REPLICA it is under the noise limits of a original ford T.
which under current laws, means it has to be under 95db. i would really like to see what kind of exhaust is required(without strangling the engine) to meet these requirements!!

even tho not many people on here care, or think its an idea that wont work, the feedback from local hotrod clubs etc has been extremely promising, as it will set a benchmark that can be adhered to for road legal cars, hobby cars etc that may not be driven that much on the road(sunday drives etc....) but still want to be legal.

[VTAKYO]

In that case I'd say the idea of a limited registration would be advisable, as opposed to a blanket certification that allowed them to drive whenever. Regardless of the car and driver, like fuck would I want a 100+dB T-bucket (or any type of car for that matter) coming home down my street at 3am. During the day I wouldn't care, I'd be all for them being able to drive their pride and joy.

Even Competition cars are noise limited.

MSNZ Manual #34 - Schedule A 5.6: All vehicles shall be fitted with an efficient and effective silencer that;
(a) Does not exceed the maximum permitted noise level

For example, at Ruapuna by the archway/barrier arms, there is a sign stating the 95dB noise limit. Also, this means if on the road the car adheres to normal noise limits.

Schedule A 8.1 states that cars used on the road must have a WOF/REGO (or at least for the period of time in which it is used on the road). It passes through the same process with the exception of rights given under Schedule A 8.2. This states that authority cards only cover: harnesses, rollcages, modifications affecting structural rigidity/integrity, brake modifications, removal of factory protective items (airbags etc), installation of competition seats, and alternative material windows. Modifications other than this run under standard LVV and LTNZ rules and general traffic regulations. It does not cover engine/exhaust/electrical/suspension rules (apart from suspension modifications affecting the structure of the car).

As I said earlier, a car used on the road is in fact a car used on the road. All the certification process covers is the safety of the car, as your average WOF man is probably not knowledgeable enough to deal with cages and harnesses. Other than that the car logically should adhere to the same rules. Indicators, noise, etc.

I think the rules are fine as they are.