The ultimate FI system???

[doo0T!doo0T!]

I've been laughing away to my self how worked up people are getting at poor old John in his carbie turbo thread so i thought i'd post up this idea for you to have a coronary over.

If your looking at it and wondering what the hell it is and why, here's a quick explanation.
It's esentially a turbo-jet fed forced induction set up.

Before reading further understand how a simple turbo jet works, it's basically a turbo that feeds back into itself with a combustion chamber in the middle. The burning gas spools up the exhaust wheel which in turn spools up the compressor wheel stuffing more air into the combustion chamber to be mixed with more fuel, etc etc, to control it's out-put power you meter the fuel input and it is essentially self regulating.

So in my turbo-jet fed combustion engine here's how it goes....

There are two turbos a primary and a secondary. The primary turbo is spooled up by the exhaust gas from the engine in the conventional way but it's compressor side feeds air not back into the engine, but through a one-way reed valve (to stop reverse flow) and into a seperate combustion chamber where it is mixed with kerosene and ignited. This turbo has it's own air inlet and piping in the conventional sense nothing out of the ordinary there.
The ignited air/fuel and expanding gasses in the combustion chamber are directed through a bigger secondary turbo exhaust housing which in turn spools up it's inlet side and forces fresh air from it's own air inlet and piping and forces it on to the TB and into the runners where it is introduced with Mr methonol and forced into the engine.

There is only one wastegate, it's on the primary turbo, the spool of the second turbo is largely controlled by kerosene fuel delivery.
If the wastegate on the primary turbo was opened and the kerosene was cut off the system would stop operating and would be totally bypassed and the engine would run NA.
If you just cut the kerosene supply without the wastegate the primary turbo could still pressurise the combustion chamber and could still spool the secondary turbo with the pressure (at a much lesser extent of course)

There is a mumma of all blow off valves after the secondary turbo, the exhaust from the primary turbo is plumbed back into the exhaust of the secondary turbo, the high speed gas from the turbo-jet is slowed down in an expansion chamber (a 6" diameter dump pipe) and it would help to draw or extract the gas from the primary turbo as it is decellerated.

There is potential to run two intercoolers, one for each system but for simplicities sake I left them out of the drawing. One would be after the primary turbo before the reed valve and the second would be after the blow off valve before the TB.

The whole reason for this hairbrained scheme is to be able to achieve massive boost without relying on massive engine rpm to do it.
I'm sure you've all seen footage of 1000hp+ GTR's and Supras on the dyno, sure they are impressive but they suck ass untill the engine is running fast enough to spool the huge turbo and by the time the turbo really starts to sing they are out of their rpm capability. They are only 1000hp+ for a small rpm window and on the dyno it's often only a fraction of a second before the rev limiter because accelleration is a lot faster on the dyno than it is in 4th gear on the road.

With this system you could have as much boost at any rpm range as a full throttle turbo jet could produce.
Imagine being able to adjust fuel pressure to the jet and suddenly be able to achive 55-60psi of boost pressure at say 4000rpm and sacrifice no flywheel hp to do it. (a big conventional turbo takes a lot of energy to drive as well as gives it) (more so for a supercharger, like 350+ hp to drive a supercharger on a top-fuel dragster)

This system would probably be very laggy because of the long feedback loop but it is all a curcuit and the more kerosene (jetfuel) you feed it the harder the 2nd turbo blows,the higher the inlet boost pressure, the more fuel is fed to the engine, the harder the exhaust spins the primary turbo, the harder the primary turbo feeds air to the combustion chamber to allow more kero to be pushed in. etcetera....

Its basically a combustion engine curcuit, piggy backed with a turbo jet curcuit running in tandem and dependently on each other.

Engine management would be a bit of a nightmare because boost pressure would no longer be solely rpm and throttle position dependent. (and the MAP would have to read a fair few bar )
The fuel management for the kero is not so crucial, you cant detonate a turbo-jet in the same way you can a piston engine, there is no compression stroke so the burn is much less air/fuel specific.
It could even be controlled by somthing as simple as a rising rate pressure reg with a cut-off solenoid to stop it when necessary.
It would still require a very high pressure fuel pump to over come the combustion chamber pressures though, probably out of a jet aircraft.

Frost, no copying for your new EF!!

Anyway have a laugh,....

[Frost]

Originally Posted by doo0T!doo0T!

Frost, no copying for your new EF!!

Haha - I wouldn't dream of it!! 8)













Now wheres my note book.. Hmm ok, I need one of those - two of those......

[doo0T!doo0T!]

I had another idea too but seems like BMW have beaten me too it in a complicated kind of way.
http://paultan.org/archives/2005/12/...-turbosteamer/

Never mind my other idea involving H2O2 hasn't been done yet.

[Lith]

Nice idea

The other problem with a large turbo on a comparatively small motor is surge. If the motor is small enough to warrant such an intricate setup to get the turbo up to speed, the odds are the compressor will be big enough that its surge line will be in the highish rpm range of the engine for most pressure ratios - especially higher ones (going by how most maps look).

I'd say you'd need to come up with some system using a pop-off valve to artificially move the compressor into an area where its not likely to get into a surge condition trying to force too much air at the motor.

[itekdu]

Imagine the piping nightmare in that

[Colza]

Thats just like running another motor to power your supercharger.

But in a slightly more roundabout and cool manner

I think you would be better off running the turbo jet completely seperate from the engine. Take the exhuast from the turbo jet and run that through the second turbo. Then use the compressor side of that second turbo to provide air for the piston engine.

That way you dont have to restrict the exhaust system of the piston engine with a turbocharger. Also means your turbojet could be much smaller and may actually fit in an engine bay. You would need air bypass valves in place so you dont get compressor surge on the secondary turbo and some kind of control simple control system for fuelling the turbo jet as needed to vary your boost.

The problems would be that the turbojet would probably use more fuel than the piston engine, and getting the jet running initially would be quite tricky. That and youd want some AWESOME intercooling before the piston engine!

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Colza

Thats just like running another motor to power your supercharger.

But in a slightly more roundabout and cool manner

I think you would be better off running the turbo jet completely seperate from the engine. Take the exhuast from the turbo jet and run that through the second turbo. Then use the compressor side of that second turbo to provide air for the piston engine.

That way you dont have to restrict the exhaust system of the piston engine with a turbocharger. Also means your turbojet could be much smaller and may actually fit in an engine bay. You would need air bypass valves in place so you dont get compressor surge on the secondary turbo and some kind of control simple control system for fuelling the turbo jet as needed to vary your boost.

The problems would be that the turbojet would probably use more fuel than the piston engine, and getting the jet running initially would be quite tricky. That and youd want some AWESOME intercooling before the piston engine!

Yeah thats a good idea. I might draw that up too and see what it looks like.
Fuel consumption is not an issue, this wouldn't be for good for anything except drag racing or dyno demos.

Has anyone got any info on that 2.4 litre custom-built 4 cyl turbo engine that mopar built in the states which was like 2500hp or some crazy shit, i cant find it any where. Thats the sort of block you'd need to take the sort of boost this system could potentially shove.

[Lith]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e...2c936f472c.htm

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Lith

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e...2c936f472c.htm

Not actually the one I had in mind but mean either way!!!

[chuckles2]

something similar that has been done before..


blow off valve dumps to exhaust manifold via reed valve, injector in exhasut manifold, when car is idling and blow off valve open its dumping air into exhaust manifold and injector pumps fuel in as well creating massive combustion instantly making 30-40psi, the system operates for a split second on the start line of a drag race.

BUT problem is rapid acceleration of exhaust wheel on large turbos caused the wheel to split and sheer the turbo shaft.

[Lith]

Originally Posted by chuckles2

something similar that has been done before..


blow off valve dumps to exhaust manifold via reed valve, injector in exhasut manifold, when car is idling and blow off valve open its dumping air into exhaust manifold and injector pumps fuel in as well creating massive combustion instantly making 30-40psi, the system operates for a split second on the start line of a drag race.

BUT problem is rapid acceleration of exhaust wheel on large turbos caused the wheel to split and sheer the turbo shaft.

I remember once theorising about methods similar to this. I personally ended up deciding that NOS makes a LOT more sense. Less fuel, less mechanical complexity, the same effect....

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Lith

I remember once theorising about methods similar to this. I personally ended up deciding that NOS makes a LOT more sense. Less fuel, less mechanical complexity, the same effect....

Or direct injection of H2O2 (hyrogen peroxide) into the exhaust manifold, it decomposes into oxygen and hydrogen with the intense heat and in the process expands 600 times and then we all know what hydrogen and oxygen do when ignited.

The plus side is the byproduct is oxygen and water.

[DrRubber]

what about a turbo + supercharger and make the best of both worlds .......they used to do it alot on american truck deisel engines etc

*edit* mike your a mega geek btw

[nzcivicracer]

Originally Posted by badcf4

what about a turbo + supercharger and make the best of both worlds .......they used to do it alot on american truck deisel engines etc

Like they also do on the new VW Golf GT, goes quite well for a 1.4 litre engine :wink:

[nzcivicracer]

Bloody hell Mike, thats some contraption you've dreamed up there!!
Would make a hell of a drag engine!! Would be a crazy project for sure, and quite do-able with enough time, patience & a bit of spare coin! You'd just need to find a motor capable of running a few bars boost

That BMW concept is interesting, I didnt have a good read but is a 6-stroke engine? Brian Crower has been mucking around with a six-stroke engine, pretty crazy!!

[SK1TZ- EF]

fast forward 60years and we see a young Peter jackson Jnr directing teh Kiwi film "Worlds fastest 1337 g33k in a Honda"

lol

[notorious1_85]

I would pay soemone to chuck this on a go kart or that ariel atom shell FTW

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by notorious1_85

I would pay soemone to chuck this on a go kart or that ariel atom shell FTW

Funny you should mention that really.
Heres a H2O2 turbine powered gokart and by christ it flies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1qJH55jE1E
It's not the vid I wanted to show you but it's the same kart.
It's powered by H2O2 decomposing onto silver nitrate in a chamber, the heat produced then ignites the hydrogen and oxygen and the expanding steam is passed through a turbine with a reduction and direct connection to the rear wheels.

The explosion at the end on a wheelstand launch is when the chain broke.

And yes of coarse I'm a nerd why else would I be posting on a honda enthusiasts website at 11pm on a friday night.

[rage.]

youve just complicated a typical antilag setup

your kerosene injection and combustion chamber is basically what antilag does.

[Lith]

Originally Posted by rage.

your kerosene injection and combustion chamber is basically what antilag does.

Not quite. Antilag promotes a full on explosion in the turbine housing/exhaust manifold while this is more like having a controlled burn if I am understanding it correctly. Overly complicated though, I'd just stick with antilag or NOS

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Just to clarify here the extra combustion chamber is not there to keep a turbo spooled, it's to create potentially very high boost on-throttle when you need it.

Originally Posted by rage.

youve just complicated a typical antilag setup

your kerosene injection and combustion chamber is basically what antilag does.

Well sort of but not really.
Antilag doesn't make you any more power than your engine could ordinarily make. This idea is about making more power not keeping a turbine spooled.
Anti-lag is just done conventionally with ignition retard and off-throttle fuel controlling with the existing fuel system, there is no additional fuel system.
You can get exhaust manifold pressures of about 0.5 to 1.5bar max using an anti-lag system but none of that power is transfered to the wheels and all it does is keep the turbo spooled. It doesn't make inlet manifold pressure rise in any useable way because it's done off throttle and when your are off the throttle the blow off valve is open and the engine is not making any power.

The turbo-jet system uses the controlled burn to boost the secondary turbo potentially creating a shed load of useable boost, on-throttle.

But,....there is no reason why you couldn't use an anti-lag system on the kero delivery to keep the big secondary turbo spooled.

This concept is for drag racing anyway and you couldn't run it at full power for more than a minute or so anyway as the exhaust temps after the kero burner would be horiffic.

Originally Posted by Lith

Overly complicated though, I'd just stick with antilag or NOS

Why not and NOS. :twisted:

[Coupe-R]

Anti lag is used for on throttle clutch in situations also. You can see it in full action on that goo tube vid of the 7 second civic coupe that stephandfjdfh drives.

Build full boost by igntion retard for a launch, turbo can be spooled to say 10-15psi and no spool time is needed when you release the clutch. Bam you are gone.
You will hear the "pop pop pop, and flames out the exhaust"

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Coupe-R

Anti lag is used for on throttle clutch in situations also. You can see it in full action on that goo tube vid of the 7 second civic coupe that stephandfjdfh drives.

Build full boost by igntion retard for a launch, turbo can be spooled to say 10-15psi and no spool time is needed when you release the clutch. Bam you are gone.
You will hear the "pop pop pop, and flames out the exhaust"

You got the link? You sure your not thinking of launch control? because that does what you describe as well.

[Coupe-R]

no not launch control, that just holds your rpm at a set level, more of a rev limit noise. Building boost on the line retards timing and you will hear turbo spool.

Full boost launch, retards ignition right back to spool the turbo. I think people have done this with crome, but hondata and ectune will do this well. I think this referred to as a 2step?


Watch the vid, see the rev counter jump back and forth for about a second while it's on the launch control then hear the anti lag kick in and the needle goes crazy.
Also when that same run is viewed from the outside you can hear the normal rev limit, and then the "BANG BANG" of the anti lag come in soon after

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=13968748

[doo0T!doo0T!]

8O

Listen to his awsome straight cut box.