EF7 hybrid ZC/D16a6 Turbo. Indexed

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Trench_Rat

im trying to figure out this thing with putting the arp bolts in the top those rods are identical to the scat ones im using and the bolts og in the bottom.

Those ones pictured are B18c ones, they had a fuck up on their web site and what was shown as a D series rod was actually for a VW flat four.
They indeed had the bolts on the top of the big end which is what I presumed I was getting because of the picture.
When they arrived they were the same as the B18c ones above with the bolts in the right place.
I would have notched the block already but I was a dumb shit and gave the rods away to be balenced, I should have notched it first and then had them balenced. Nevermind.

[Trench_Rat]

lol i see , i couldnt comprehend the point of putting the bolt in the top for a honda but now it makes sense. how much is your rod balancing costing you? they really shouldnt need much balancing at all since they should of been packaged as a indentical weights + or- 1% and should of already been balanced at the factory well thats what scat ones come as anyway and so do eagle and tuner toys and they all from the same factory in china and i wouldnt mind betting a lazy tener that those are made there aswell , what pistons are you using? those rods pictured are for a full floating pin so if your not using a forged psiton that comes with a circlip to retain the gedgeon you will need to have teflon plugs made up. thats what i had to do since i was using nippon race pistons which ar for press fit pins with scat rods that are meant for a full floating pin but after talking to a few reputable engine builders they all told me that the teflon plug is far better as circlips have a tendency to jump out of the rail at high rpm and then proceed to munch your rings wer as the teflon plug will slide out until it contacts the bore and then slide back in without any damage.

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Trench_Rat

lol i see , i couldnt comprehend the point of putting the bolt in the top for a honda but now it makes sense. how much is your rod balancing costing you? they really shouldnt need much balancing at all since they should of been packaged as a indentical weights + or- 1% and should of already been balanced at the factory well thats what scat ones come as anyway and so do eagle and tuner toys and they all from the same factory in china and i wouldnt mind betting a lazy tener that those are made there aswell , what pistons are you using? those rods pictured are for a full floating pin so if your not using a forged psiton that comes with a circlip to retain the gedgeon you will need to have teflon plugs made up. thats what i had to do since i was using nippon race pistons which ar for press fit pins with scat rods that are meant for a full floating pin but after talking to a few reputable engine builders they all told me that the teflon plug is far better as circlips have a tendency to jump out of the rail at high rpm and then proceed to munch your rings wer as the teflon plug will slide out until it contacts the bore and then slide back in without any damage.

They were in a weight matched set of + or - 1 gram (same as scat / eagle) which is fine but the distribution was all over the place so I'm getting them matched exactly. They put them accross two scales and measure the top and bottom ends seperately so that they can make the weight distribution correct accross the rod. That tells them whether weight needs to come off the top or bottom end.
These revmaster ones are apparently made in the USA in a plant that manufactures pylon-racing aircraft engines.
My pistons are stock PM6 -3cc dished. brand new, I was told the rods are a direct replacement but I'm yet to fit them because I still havn't got them back.
If it turns out I need teflon I'll be getting in touch with you. What did they set you back?
I dont know how much the balence is going to cost but the bottom end balence, not including the rods was $140 i think from memory.

*edit* I just gave Lynn a call, $150 for the rotating balance, conrods are $12 each and a full engine balence is $250. Prices dont include gst.

[turbozxi]

Yeah I always thought you couldn't use stock pistons with aftermarket rods for D-series engines anyway?

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by turbozxi

Yeah I always thought you couldn't use stock pistons with aftermarket rods for D-series engines anyway?

Thats what they said about putting the ZC head on an A7 block.
We'll find out next week I guess. I cant see it being that much of an issue.

[Trench_Rat]

If it turns out I need teflon I'll be getting in touch with you. What did they set you back?

im getting mine made at the moment i dont know what theyr costing

edit* I just gave Lynn a call, $150 for the rotating balance, conrods are $12 each and a full engine balence is $250. Prices dont include gst.

dam $12 i should of had mine done before i got them pressed on

[doo0T!doo0T!]

After all this and the events that have recently been bought to light I am seriously considering going forged pistons.
I figure I could probably sell the stock pistons and rods i have for $200 if i'm lucky enough. They are literally brand new, still have assembly paint on.
Plus the machining cost of modifying my pistons to accomodate the floating rods makes me think it might not be a bad idea.
If I go forged i will go back to a PM7 / P29 piston and put the compression back up to 9.5:1 because at 8.3 as it sits I'm less likely to see that 180WKw I am aiming for.

I removed the stock PM6 pistons and rods last night and they are SO super lightweight and flimsy, i dont know how in the hell Turbo_zxi got his 188WkW without them blowing to bits.

I dummy fit the new radiator and all the turbo etc in last night to check clearances, it's looking sweeeeeet, the exhaust housing is a little close for comfort to the rad though and I think I'll have to notch the frame a bit.
it's going to be a mission getting a smooth exhaust bend around from the wastegate down under the sump.

I think I'll have to heave the washer bottle out and put the air filter there as there seems to be no other logical place.

I also fitted my MSD blaster coil and cap and it ran sweet but on the drive home it started a funny miss at low revs with a bit of throttle on.

Pics later

*edit* been looking around a bit, looks like SRP's the only decent manufacturer still doing D16A pistons.
http://www.ImportPerformanceParts.net/
because I'm running a ZC head which has a big 43.8cc combustion chamber in the head I will get lower compressions than given in the chart.
If I use the +4.3cc pistons i'll get 9.4:1 comp
If I use the -2.9cc pistons i'll get 8.3:1 comp

I think 9.4's the go, should be safe enough with a quality tune and 98 octane. US $389 a set ouch. Might have to sell my bike

[turbozxi]

There are a lot of manufactures making pistons for D-series engines. CP, Arias, JE, SRP... Have you seen the Suzuki Vitara threads on H-T?
Compression would be very low with them though.

You will not see 180kws with a Turbo link and have it running correctly I can gaurantee that. There fine for low boost but not up the higher levels.

[Trench_Rat]

the teflon plugs wont be expensive man theyr just basically a peice of teflon cut into the shape of an ear plug im only expecting $100 for all 8 of mine. did you remove the ignitor when you installed the msd coil? ive been thinking of doing it myself but i dont know if it wil give me any gains or not. i had a think about that 3 port boost solenoid of yours , does it just control how much the wastegate opens like a normal boost controller? if so you could give it a real high boost setting for low rpm so that the wastegate stays hard shut then taper it off to your desired boost level at mid and high that way you would get super fast spool up. only problem is if your just cruising at low rpm you may end up with 20 psi coming through

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by turbozxi

There are a lot of manufactures making pistons for D-series engines. CP, Arias, JE, SRP... Have you seen the Suzuki Vitara threads on H-T?
Compression would be very low with them though.

Sorry what I meant to say was SRP are the only ones I could find doing a piston suitable for my engine.
I've looked at Vitara options but I dont see how it would help, I might as well use the pistons i have. Compression with a vitara piston would be extreemly low because the ZC head has such large combustion chambers.
According to the JE catalogue they've stopped doing D series and are just doing K, H and B.
CP dont do one in the right compression, the 11cr one would be close but you cant go by what the catalogue says the compression is because thats compression in a D16a6 not a ZC, totally different combustion chamber designs.
And Arias dont do stock bore, only two different overbore sizes.

Originally Posted by turbozxi

You will not see 180kws with a Turbo link and have it running correctly I can gaurantee that. There fine for low boost but not up the higher levels.

I think I will see 180WKW, maybe not with the two 2ndary injectors but more likely with four, it's an easy modification if two doesn't work out and the Turbo link is designed to control up to four extras.

Wern't you running a Turbolink when you hit 188? Nigel got pretty close with 170 and that was on an engine with over 200,000 clicks on it.

Originally Posted by Trench_Rat

the teflon plugs wont be expensive man theyr just basically a peice of teflon cut into the shape of an ear plug im only expecting $100 for all 8 of mine. did you remove the ignitor when you installed the msd coil? ive been thinking of doing it myself but i dont know if it wil give me any gains or not. i had a think about that 3 port boost solenoid of yours , does it just control how much the wastegate opens like a normal boost controller? if so you could give it a real high boost setting for low rpm so that the wastegate stays hard shut then taper it off to your desired boost level at mid and high that way you would get super fast spool up. only problem is if your just cruising at low rpm you may end up with 20 psi coming through

I'll look into plugging but after seeing how nancy the pistons are I'm not so sure about durablitiy any more.
Yeah the three port controls just the same but allows the turbo link to specify any %boost at any 500rpm rev increment intstead of just opening and closing at 1 specified boost limit for all rev ranges.
I think I'll avoid high boost at low revs because thats when detonation is more likely, I dont mind waiting for the boost, the little T25 should spool up real fast anyway.

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Heres some pics from this weekends dummy fit up...
The new radiator, 30mm core all aluminium custom made to fit.

The new radiator in place and fitting in next to the turbo without too much trouble, a bit of the frame might need notching.

The MSD blaster 2 coil leads and cap (leads ex LoFREQ) Coil found at pick a part for $12 on an old truiumph 2000!!

Engine bay showing off set intercooler and oil cooler position under turbo.


The reason why i have to mount the intercooler off to one side....she's poking right out through the hole!


The rear mounted battery.

[Trench_Rat]

looking good dude 8) thats one sexy radiator , what brand of oil cooler are you using and wat did it cost?

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by Trench_Rat

looking good dude 8) thats one sexy radiator , what brand of oil cooler are you using and wat did it cost?

Thats the one off my dad's old skool Project car, he's putting a 4-bolt 350 chev with fireball cams, 650 double pumper holley and edlebrock performer manifold in an austin healy 100/4 with hand made chromealloy suspension, custom brakes, Jaguar IRS rear susp with a 4 speed muncie & B&M drag shift kit.
He's having to refabricate new chassis rails and the works.
We're both going pretty hard on our cars at the moment.
1000kg car, 360hp 8O I think he might have me licked down the 1/4mile though.

It's some american cooler that he picked up at a swap-meet in rotorua for about $100 for the whole remote mount kit and adapter.
I havn't bought mine yet but I think I'll go somthing similar. The main reason i havn't bought yet is I'm disgusted at the amount they expect you to pay for a decent kit. I'm keeping my eyes and ears open for a 2nd hand kit. All you really need is the sandwich plate and the cooler, all the lines can be done at your local hydralink or ENZED but its also pretty expensive.

[turbozxi]

Originally Posted by doo0T!doo0T!

Sorry what I meant to say was SRP are the only ones I could find doing a piston suitable for my engine.
I've looked at Vitara options but I dont see how it would help, I might as well use the pistons i have. Compression with a vitara piston would be extreemly low because the ZC head has such large combustion chambers.
According to the JE catalogue they've stopped doing D series and are just doing K, H and B.
CP dont do one in the right compression, the 11cr one would be close but you cant go by what the catalogue says the compression is because thats compression in a D16a6 not a ZC, totally different combustion chamber designs.
And Arias dont do stock bore, only two different overbore sizes.

I think I will see 180WKW, maybe not with the two 2ndary injectors but more likely with four, it's an easy modification if two doesn't work out and the Turbo link is designed to control up to four extras.

Wern't you running a Turbolink when you hit 188? Nigel got pretty close with 170 and that was on an engine with over 200,000 clicks on it.

I'll look into plugging but after seeing how nancy the pistons are I'm not so sure about durablitiy any more.
Yeah the three port controls just the same but allows the turbo link to specify any %boost at any 500rpm rev increment intstead of just opening and closing at 1 specified boost limit for all rev ranges.
I think I'll avoid high boost at low revs because thats when detonation is more likely, I dont mind waiting for the boost, the little T25 should spool up real fast anyway.

I see. What compression pistons are you looking for, what do you have at the moment? I would of thought JE would still be making them as they are basically SRP's anyway.

Yeah I made over 180kws with the turbo link but it never ran right there was always a bogging issue. I had it retuned multiple times and there was no way to fix it. Ended getting my ECU chipped this solved the problem. I believe LOFREQ's car never ran quite right either as he got up into the higher boost.

The Turbolink did work well upto 12psi on my car it ran like a factory FI car. But beyond that I ran into trouble. It can controll upto 6 injectors I looked into using one injector plugged into each runner on the intake manifold. But in the end decided the resolution of the Turbo link is not upto it is very hard to tune . My 2 cents anyway.

[Hayce]

I didnt go back over the thread but why is the turbo there? Sorry if this is has been covered (ignore if it has).

Just seems wierd having it like that especially has it appears to be very close to both oil cooler and radiator... Looks like a fun project regardless.

[Trench_Rat]

yeah cooler kits are very expensive you can peice one together for $100 less than a kit though , im using a sandwich plate behind the filter that way its cheaper and i dont need to relocate the filter really so why pay for the mount. Dont use a second hand cooler man you never ever know whats inside them theres a rule of thumb that if a cooler has had 2 engine blow ups it goes in the bin because it will be full of debri that you cant just flush out of it with petrol or comprssed air , i know it seems damn expensive to pay $200 for a cooler but its$200 well spent knowing that your not pumping shards of metal thru your new engine. oh and your dad is a crzy bastard 8O i like his style

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by turbozxi

I see. What compression pistons are you looking for, what do you have at the moment? I would of thought JE would still be making them as they are basically SRP's anyway.

Yeah I made over 180kws with the turbo link but it never ran right there was always a bogging issue. I had it retuned multiple times and there was no way to fix it. Ended getting my ECU chipped this solved the problem. I believe LOFREQ's car never ran quite right either as he got up into the higher boost.

The Turbolink did work well upto 12psi on my car it ran like a factory FI car. But beyond that I ran into trouble. It can controll upto 6 injectors I looked into using one injector plugged into each runner on the intake manifold. But in the end decided the resolution of the Turbo link is not upto it is very hard to tune . My 2 cents anyway.

Yeah it seems like JE and SRP are the same company now but still offering the two product ranges, I guess JE dropped the D-series line and just left it to SRP as the demand diminishes.
The pistons I have now are PM6 -3.4cc dished exactly what you had in your engine, with my ZC head they work out to 8.3:1 compression. I thought this would be good and safe to use with the turbo.
But...if I decide to go forged then I dont need the compression to be down that low and would prefer to take it back up to around 9.5:1cr

A stock PM7 ZC 7cc dome piston would do the trick. That makes for 9.55cr but I cant find forged ones.
The SRP 11cr d16a6 piston has a 4.2cc dome but smaller piston to deck height so it works out about the same or only slightly lower at 9.41cr
So I guess I'm really after a stock (but forged) ZC DOHC piston or equivelant.

Thats interesting to hear about the Turbo-link, if I do end up having trouble I can go to a chipped ECU as luckily my ECU is an external eprom unit.
At the moment I dont have the money to spend getting a chip written and tuned, the turbolink should still have nigel's program on it so it'll hopefully be an easy alteration to suit my engine.
My plans for the future were to get it going as well as i can as it is and then later down the track, up grade to a GT28 and external wastegate and get the ecu tuned for boost.
I agree about the resolution being poor on the turbolink, sounds like the link-plus is a better solution with 100rpm intervals instead of 500.
What sort of power were you making on 12psi?

[Trench_Rat]

sounds like the link-plus is a better solution with 100rpm intervals

link plus isnt worth the extra money just get a run of the mill link , a guy i knwo has used both in his rally car and said the only difference is that the link plus has extra ignition outputs , it has a bit higher resolution than the plain link but not by much

[turbozxi]

12psi= 160kws

Have you looked into Wiseco pistons 75mm std bore 9:1..

I notice a guy on H-T is running them on his dohc zc.

[Coupe-R]

looks good so far, except the crazy turbo position, and the IC not centered. what bumper u gonna run, maybe it will cover alot of the IC air flow

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by turbozxi

12psi= 160kws
Have you looked into Wiseco pistons 75mm std bore 9:1..
I notice a guy on H-T is running them on his dohc zc.

Yeah he must have had them for a while, the only ones listed in the current Wiseco catalogue are for the z6 and y6 and have massive dishes in them.
Doesn't look like they're doing a6 pistons.
He may of course had them custom made but thats a little out of my price range!

Originally Posted by redinteg

looks good so far, except the crazy turbo position, and the IC not centered. what bumper u gonna run, maybe it will cover alot of the IC air flow

A few people have commented on this so here's how it is, the turbo is mounted at about a 15-20 degree clockwise angle (looking down) so that a decent collector and exhaust bend wont run too close in behind the radiator core and make enough room that a reasonable width radiator can be used. (500mm)
There isn't enough room under the manifold to turn the turbo around and tuck it underneath and also the piping would be all ass-about-face.
The exhaust housing is not radiating heat onto either side of the core, it's off to the side, the part of the dump pipe and collector that curls around behind the radiator will be heat wrapped to reduce heat radiation.
I know the manifold works, it's the one off the quest-4 crx and that used to go hard.

I'm using a mugen front bar which will be cut away on the inside to fit the intercooler without it poking through. It might be off to one side but it's not going to be very visible any way, certainly not like one of those polished gay-bar-dancer racepro ones half the size of the front of the car.
The oil cooler is quite close to the turbo but it's close to the inlet side which is heaps cooler and it's the best position for the cooler, air flow wise.

Bottomline, you couldn't swing a cat in there.

[tarmac-]

interesing. should go well . theres always a way to mount the intercooler center. has your car got power steering.

[doo0T!doo0T!]

Originally Posted by tarmac-

interesing. should go well . theres always a way to mount the intercooler center. has your car got power steering.

Hell no power steering is for sissy boys! , you're right though, I could mount it centrally by rotating the inlet housing around about 90 - 100 degrees and cut off the inlet bend and turn it around, but it would require about 3 - 4 feet of extra inlet piping and I'm scarred it's going to become too laggy with all that extra volume to pressurise.
You've been down this road before, what do you reckon, i'm honestly not worried about the appearance of the offset cooler if thats your main concern. I wouldn't want to sacrifice performance just to look normal.


The blockgaurd left Florida on the 20th an is still in Georgia what the hell are they doing with it?!!

Endyn pistons have got back to me with a price for their "Rollerwave" forged pistons specifically for the ZC.
$485.00 with pins and retaining clips. Rings are $78.00 for the engine set.
Works out to NZ$789 not including postage.
They are a Wiseco blank custom made for Endyn, modified inhouse by Endyn to incorporate the rollerwave crown design that suppossedly promotes a more efficent combustion.
Pretty pricy but they're pretty much the shiz nitz.

I think I'll wait to hear back from SRP before I go and jump into anything.