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  1. #1
    Team NZH: Order of Merit doo0T!doo0T!'s Avatar
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    Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Not sure if this belongs here as it's just all theory at the moment (though could quickly be converted to reality)

    A few people may know the banana teg is not my real project car and in my shed I have a very neglected and dusty EF7 crx which was on it's way to becoming a track car when it got sidelined way back when I put that H22a in my old EG (which became an NZHondas whre car for a while)
    Then it got sidelined for an H2B coupe, then a JRSC Teg so now I think it's only fair that I finish what I started 5 or 6 years ago.

    OK so heres the plan...
    I want to use it in the Motul Honda cup, obviously not this season thats just not going to happen, but I'm hopeful for 2011 if they still let EF's in.
    It had a turbo d-series ZC hybrid in it which was a bit of a technical feat in it'self but I have since pulled it out and sold most of it and very soon I'll start the new engine.
    I have 'aquired' an F20b dohc vtec form an SiR accord. As a few of you already know this is a baby type-S engine with 11.0:1 compression and euro-R camshafts. Well the manual one anyway.
    Mine's out of an auto but it's only a matter of getting other cams which I'll get to soon to make it a 200hp ripper with actual torque as well which we all know B's lack.

    I have spent a lot of time on the existing d-series L3/S20 gearbox playing with the ratios, installing an LSD and I'm, pretty happy with it and I really want to keep it.
    a) Parts are cheap and available
    b) M-factory etc are doing gear kits now
    c) Quaife do LSD's
    d) a million and one oem gear combinations available form all sorts of models.
    and probaly most importantly e) H/F series gearboxes are shit, they're massive, heavy and aside form custom gear kits there's little you can do with them.

    So the first Frankenstien mod is an Evolution F2D kit which will allow the use of an H or F series block with any post '87 d-series box, cable or hydro.
    These are $800US and include billet mounts and a flywheel and everything you need.

    And to up the awesomeness level my brother will make me a set of these too in 50mm dia


    I already have the hondata needed to tune them.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
    OK thats not that unusual but now it starts to get weird.

    This is the BTTC accord owned by Gary Morrell in Taupo.


    It's also an F20b but there's somthing a little strange going on.....
    Cant guess.....?

    It's head's on backwards. And the benefit of this is the trumpets are facing directly into the airstream like a K-series.



    At first when I saw this I thought it was some serious engineering and wondered why they would bother to go to so much trouble just to ensure cold air.

    So today I went down to my lair and grabbed the F20b head off the bench and plonked it on the block the other way around.
    Bores line up perfectly.
    Head bolts line up perfectly.
    Aside from a few of the sensors and obvious cam shaft backwards issue it's pretty straight forward. Easier than getting the dohc head on the sohc block with the ZC.

    I've worked out I can actually use off the shelf H/F series cams, all I have to do is lathe off the retainer ring from one end and press another one on the opposite end because without it the cam will 'float' back and forth, which is not good.
    Other than that the cam is basically symmetrical.

    The cams will still spin anticlockwise the way they were designed to but the inlet cam will be at the front and the exhaust cam will be at the back.
    I can even still use the timing marks on the camgears

    This means the dizzy will have to be mounted on the rear cam like it is in a ZC ratehr than the front cam like it is in the F20b normally.
    Obviously brackets will have to be made and different diameter seals will be used to stop leaks.

    What appeared to be a big undertaking is actually simpler than first thought.

    Here's some pics to show what I mean....



    Thats the head on backwards and bolted up.


    Camgears where the dizzy should be


    Will have to relocate the oil filter. The headers will run down the back liek a K20a


    Plenty of room for the water feed tube.



    These are the rings which need to be lathed off



    Dizzy now sits on the rear cam not the forward, you can see the slot for it on the left cam.



    Pullies line up pretty well, can always shim/space them if necessary.
    The cam pullies will need to be lathed a bit in the centre to clear the hole in the head at the end of the cam.



    Lobes all align mint even though they're backwards



    Obviously all this balance shaft shit will go in the bin.


    Other than that theres a few water fitting which have to be shifted, this one fouls on the cam belt..


    The oil feed to the head will have to be external.

    The oil feed to the vtec pins will be external and permanent. (vtec always engaged) This is because the solenoid has to go in the bin because now there is a cam gear there.


    OK now here's the next stage.

    Ian alerted me to the existance of a motor called an F18b which is a sohc vtec 1.8 litre which came in the 1.8VTS accord (around 1997)

    Its got an amazing bore/stroke ratio of 85 bore x 81 stroke, it's the same bore as an F20b but the stroke is a full 7mm shorter!!
    Thats a bore/stoke ratio of 1:0.952

    That shits all over a B18c. B18c bore is 81 but stroke is way longer at 87.2
    Thats a ratio of 1:1.07

    And as far as bore to stroke ratio goes it even just beats a B16a/b.
    The B16a's actual stroke is shorter at 77.4 but the bore is 81 so thats a ratio of 1:0.955

    Now if we bore the F18b out 2mm from 85mm to 87mm and put Euro-R 87mm H22a pistons in it all of a sudden that bore stroke ratio gets even better.
    1:0.931 Quite undersquare.
    It's essentially now a de-stroked F20C (S2000 engine)
    The F20c has an 87mm bore, same as H22a but has a stroke of 84mm
    We will be the same bore but the stroke will be 3mm shorter.

    The archilles heel of the S2000 engine is it's high piston speed (highest piston speed for any mass produced consumer engine)
    Reducing the stroke by 3mm reduces the peak speed of the piston considerably.

    So what's this all in aid of?
    Well if an F20b in stock form can be revved to 7800 - 8000 at a stretch and even it's big brother the H22a can be revved to 7500 surely this 1900cc short-stroker should be feasibly good for 8500 - 9000.

    Im summary it will be:
    F18b block rods and crank.
    H22a pistons (maybe mounted 180 degrees around to match pockets to valves)
    H22a head on backwards
    vtec killer cams
    50mm ITB's
    12.0:1 compression (head shaved and single layer gasket)

    Question for the gurus is..... Are honda pistons made with off-centre gudgeons? Can I rotate the piston backwards without them tipping over and jamming in the bores under load.
    (many pistons are designed to focus combustion energy down one side of the piston to counteract the off-centre load applied on it by the resistance of the con-rod and off-centre crank journal)
    Because I'm still rotating the engine anti-clockwise flipping the pistons could mess things up a bit.

    Why not get a K or even a fully built B?
    Because the CRX has always been a platform for me to try new shit and this is something I look forward to conquering.
    I think I can build it for less than a K20a or a 1900cc bored B18c as well. (B20 is shit I wouldn't go there, strokes too long at 89mm)

    It wont happen all at once, the car will get the straight F20b F2D swap first, then the ITB's made by my brother.
    Then while thats running I'll build the head-spun H22/F18b and when it's ready swap it in.

    Fun

  2. #2
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! Trivium's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Christ Mike you don't do things by halves do you Can't wait to see this being built

  3. #3
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Awesome Mike . This is exactly the sort of stuff ive come to expect of you
    Motul Honda Cup #94

  4. #4
    9,000rpm (S2000 Redline!) Slammmed's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    shit! this is going to be an epic build mate. Subscribed!

  5. #5
    7,000rpm (Peak Power) Haim's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Bloody epicness mike
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  6. #6
    8,000rpm (B Series Redline!) Snapfrozen's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    I smell a rival for Adams EG.... This is amazing, surely you can get a job with some crazy company designing rocket ships after working this all out?
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  7. #7
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) zombo's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    im going to say 3 words...

    Holy Shit, YES!

  8. #8
    7,000rpm (Peak Power) P Wizz's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    TBH, I didn't expect anything less when I opened this thread... you have one crazy very switched on brain sir.
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  9. #9
    5,000rpm (VTEC Power!) torneoboy's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    mate you are a pioneer im impressed already,cant wait to see how all this goes

    ---------- Post added at 04:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 AM ----------

    with the intakes facing forward like that you'l get a tremendous amount of air rushing in there wont you? feel like running boost
    from sohc to dohc in just 2.0 years,wow thats impresive hahaha

  10. #10
    8,000rpm (B Series Redline!) timmiblc's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    ^^^^

    Yes, will be horrible to tune, but as you know Mike we already have a method to tune on the fly
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  11. #11
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) ProjectDohc's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Certainly thinking outside the square. I'm fucking impressed to say the least
    HATER

  12. #12
    7,000rpm (Peak Power) REZRCT's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Holy heck batman. This will be epic Mike. Good stuff!
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  13. #13
    4,000rpm (Taxi Drag) dorbs's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Interesting build! Jumping on the bandwagon!

  14. #14
    11,000rpm (Spoon B16B!!) Hayce's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Humping Mikes leg!

  15. #15
    Exclusive Member VTECKN's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayce View Post
    Humping Mikes leg!
    hahahaha, yeh looks pretty crazy

  16. #16
    11,000rpm (Spoon B16B!!) americ_ian's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    f18 ftw!!

  17. #17
    19,000rpm+ Honda F1! DrRubber's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    I wanna cover you in whip cream and strawberries and eat it all off.

  18. #18
    9,000rpm (S2000 Redline!) Bananaman's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Sounds like a beast. With the piston question could you not get piston specs from JE or similars web site to see if the gudgen pin is offset? And in terms of distributor wouldn't it be easier to get a nascar style crank angle sensor setup and run solely off the crank for timing with a wasted spark setup? Thus eliminating the need for a distributor all together. Dad and I have been talking in some length about this type of setup for the drag car as he doesn't want the distributor on his engine. Only thing we can think off that would play a part in it is knowing if cylinder one is on the power stroke or not when firing cylinder one. We decided with a wasted spark setup it wouldn't matter anyway.... but it is yet to be seen.

    (btw, chevy crank angle stuff bolts to b-series stuff so could be close to F-series?)

    Wicked ideas so will look forward to the results.
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  19. #19
    7,000rpm (Peak Power) AL-'s Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    subscribed!
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  20. #20
    11,000rpm (Spoon B16B!!) XPLOIT's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Awesome, totally awesome. Loved reading all of that, so much to learn.

    Hopefully all goes to plan. I will be watching this closely

  21. #21
    Team NZH: Order of Merit doo0T!doo0T!'s Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bananaman View Post
    Sounds like a beast. With the piston question could you not get piston specs from JE or similars web site to see if the gudgen pin is offset? And in terms of distributor wouldn't it be easier to get a nascar style crank angle sensor setup and run solely off the crank for timing with a wasted spark setup? Thus eliminating the need for a distributor all together. Dad and I have been talking in some length about this type of setup for the drag car as he doesn't want the distributor on his engine. Only thing we can think off that would play a part in it is knowing if cylinder one is on the power stroke or not when firing cylinder one. We decided with a wasted spark setup it wouldn't matter anyway.... but it is yet to be seen.

    (btw, chevy crank angle stuff bolts to b-series stuff so could be close to F-series?)

    Wicked ideas so will look forward to the results.
    Yeah thought about that but I think I'll just stick with the honda dizzy for now, then I can use the Hondata. If I went to use a crank trigger I'd have to buy a Haltec or something standalone.

    Yeah it wont be too hard to find out about the gudgeons, I'm pretty sure they are not offset as there are lots of dirt-track guys running honda engines backwards without issues but I'll still look into it first.

    Toda dont make a vtec killer for H-series so I guess I'll have to remove the lost motion valves from the lifters and replace them with solid pins locking the three lifters together. Then I could lathe off the redundant low cams and just use the middle vtec lobe.
    The toda cams are the other way around, they don't have the middle lobe and you remove the lost motion pins all-togther and the centre lifter does nothing.
    This would be better than locking all three but there's no way the like of kelfords could economically re-profile a stock non-vtec lobe to be anywhere near a vtec one, let alone an extra lumpy one. It would have to be a purpose built cam.

    Or if I can find a way to externally mount the vtec solenoid away from the camgear I could just use a crower stage 3 allmotor cam and keep vtec.
    Both worth looking into but I'm not sure how easy it's going to be, there's stuff all room to play with.
    Last edited by doo0T!doo0T!; 9th February 2010 at 10:03 AM.

  22. #22
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    kelford to H killers i am pretty sure
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  23. #23
    7,000rpm (Peak Power) 89CRWreck's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    god i love your threads! so much learnt in one page haha!
    subscribed
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  24. #24
    Team NZH: Order of Merit doo0T!doo0T!'s Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Quote Originally Posted by EVLTEK View Post
    kelford to H killers i am pretty sure
    Mint never thougth to check their website, I'll give them a ring cheers

  25. #25
    6,000rpm (Max Torque) phonix's Avatar
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    Re: Doot's grand master plan, the ultimate Frankenhonda?

    Quote Originally Posted by doo0T!doo0T! View Post
    Mint never thougth to check their website, I'll give them a ring cheers
    As seen on their old H22A EG.


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